02 Jan 2026, 15:59 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.  Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 14:09 |
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Joined: 10/12/20
Posts: 312
Post Likes: +157
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This thread is quite long. It would be great to have a format where topics can be split out.
As Tony is describing, we could have a whole thread on which shops aren't afraid of this plane without paying in blood.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 16:45 |
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8736
Post Likes: +9464
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: I am thinking Penman's idea of operating cost long term is more likely than Adam's. I really REALLY REALLY want to be wrong. I spoke with Stevens in Greenville,SC who did not give me the warm fuzzies on maintenance and downtime.
Who else maintains Avanti this side of Rockies besides Stevens and Southwest Aviation Specialties? Good on you for doing your homework. I think you need to do more. Talk to Intercontinental Jets in Tulsa. They are a Piaggio Service Center, a great shop and really know the airplane. Talk to Broadies in Texas. They are an independent shop and do lots of Piaggio work. You need to understand the maintenance cycles and checks and then compare to your utilization pattterns. You also need to understand parts availability and suggest you speak to Dean at ICJS specifically about that. Can parts be expensive? Yes. Can parts be hard to find or have waiting times? Yes (but there are also a lot of used, or OH'd parts available quickly). BTW I've had both these issues on my TBM. The big downtime issue is when you OH the gear. Remember, Part 91 it's not required. Also, understand that if you plan for it you can keep flying while the gear is OH'd. Also, gear overhauls can be as little as $160k if you can wait for 8 weeks. I'm new at this and have seen some high cost issues. But I'm not new to turbines so it wasn't an eye opener. This is, after all, a plane that sells new for about $7 million so don't expect maintenance to be as cheap as the purchase price! The most shocking thing to me is the cost of Collins upgrades and service contract. That is eye watering compared to Garmin. But if you want a II it's not any different than for any other Collins airframe.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 17:19 |
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Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4950
Post Likes: +5628
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: Also, gear overhauls can be as little as $160k What exactly is overhauled during the gear overhaul? That sounds like it should be a price for gear *replacement.*
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 17:57 |
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8736
Post Likes: +9464
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: Also, gear overhauls can be as little as $160k What exactly is overhauled during the gear overhaul? That sounds like it should be a price for gear *replacement.*
I don't know exactly Jim. However, I assume all parts are examined and moving parts overhauled or replaced. I understand that the actual price of the gear OH is somewhat dependent on exactly what they have to do leading me to assume that the more time that is on the gear, or cycles can affect the total cost.
There are several shops that do the OH and prices vary. AVPRO is the most expensive with a flat $250k rate, which isn't really flat, as one set ICJS had in their shop a couple months ago had come in at $350k. There is another shop, that ICJS thinks does good work (there are others they advise me to avoid because of QC issues), that has a flexible price based on how long you wait for as little as $160k.
It's a 12 calendar year or 6,000 cycle issue.
And you just thought KA gear OH was ridiculous! 
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 18:16 |
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Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4950
Post Likes: +5628
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: I don't know exactly Jim. However, I assume all parts are examined and moving parts overhauled or replaced. I understand that the actual price of the gear OH is somewhat dependent on exactly what they have to do leading me to assume that the more time that is on the gear, or cycles can affect the total cost. There are several shops that do the OH and prices vary. AVPRO is the most expensive with a flat $250k rate, which isn't really flat, as one set ICJS had in their shop a couple months ago had come in at $350k. There is another shop, that ICJS thinks does good work (there are others they advise me to avoid because of QC issues), that has a flexible price based on how long you wait for as little as $160k. It's a 12 calendar year or 6,000 cycle issue. And you just thought KA gear OH was ridiculous! Any "overhaul" than can cost up to $350k sounds like an opportunity to provide the same service at a better price. I'm sure there's something I'm missing, but I see an opportunity for a P180 owner's group to dig into this and discover cost savings. I can see that cost getting reached for high-labor procedures that involve the airframe like spar caps, etc...but for an assembly that can be physically removed from the airplane and shipped to a processing center? Seriously, where does one generate $350k in costs?
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 18:34 |
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8736
Post Likes: +9464
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: I don't know exactly Jim. However, I assume all parts are examined and moving parts overhauled or replaced. I understand that the actual price of the gear OH is somewhat dependent on exactly what they have to do leading me to assume that the more time that is on the gear, or cycles can affect the total cost. There are several shops that do the OH and prices vary. AVPRO is the most expensive with a flat $250k rate, which isn't really flat, as one set ICJS had in their shop a couple months ago had come in at $350k. There is another shop, that ICJS thinks does good work (there are others they advise me to avoid because of QC issues), that has a flexible price based on how long you wait for as little as $160k. It's a 12 calendar year or 6,000 cycle issue. And you just thought KA gear OH was ridiculous! Any "overhaul" than can cost up to $350k sounds like an opportunity to provide the same service at a better price. I'm sure there's something I'm missing, but I see an opportunity for a P180 owner's group to dig into this and discover cost savings. I can see that cost getting reached for high-labor procedures that involve the airframe like spar caps, etc...but for an assembly that can be physically removed from the airplane and shipped to a processing center? Seriously, where does one generate $350k in costs?
Dunno. I'm paying half that.
At that rate, I'd go the extra mile and put Managhi gear on with a 15 year OH and $85k cost plus lights on the gear which eliminate one more speed issue (light doors).
As I understand it gear OH was actually closer to $400k until Managhi came out with their version. The OH shops had to cut their prices to keep everyone from going with the new gear from what I was told.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 19:03 |
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Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4950
Post Likes: +5628
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: Dunno. I'm paying half that.
At that rate, I'd go the extra mile and put Managhi gear on with a 15 year OH and $85k cost plus lights on the gear which eliminate one more speed issue (light doors).
As I understand it gear OH was actually closer to $400k until Managhi came out with their version. The OH shops had to cut their prices to keep everyone from going with the new gear from what I was told. Wait, I'm confused. It sounds like someone's done what I was suggesting. Are you saying you can overhaul for $175k-250k, or put on better aftermarket gear for $85k? That's a no-brainer. Or is it $250+85k?
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 19:06 |
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 7343
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Location: Houston, TX
Aircraft: BE-TBD
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Username Protected wrote: Or is it $250+85k? $450k to install the new Managhi gear (gleaned from a post many pages back)
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 19:28 |
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8736
Post Likes: +9464
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: Or is it $250+85k? $450k to install the new Managhi gear (gleaned from a post many pages back)
Right. OR somewhere between $165-$350 to OH existing.
The cost advantage upfront goes to existing OH. On Managhi you pay more, say $200,000 but your "annual" OH expense drops to $5,667 ($85k/15) from $20,833 (250k/12). I'm not sure what the cycles limit on Managhi is and that may factor into a high utilizer's analysis. Obviously, this simple math shows a break even for Managhi at 13 years on an annual cost basis. If you're keeping the plane a long time it might be something to consider. If you are spending $165k (which I hope to do), and won't exceed the cycle limit (which I won't) the annual cost drops to $13,750 and the payback exceeds 20 years and makes the Managhi a nonstarter regardless of ownership horizon.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 19:50 |
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Joined: 01/12/10
Posts: 593
Post Likes: +1083
Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, T-6
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Or you buy and airplane with newly overhauled gear, fly it 6 years and sell it with 6 years left at no cost to yourself (0.00 dollars per hour)  The biggest cost to the gear overhaul is the PARTS. The gear manufacturer is a subsidiary of BUGATTI. Ever buy parts to a Bugatti?  I bought two shims to fix a nose gear shimmy I had early on from them. TWO SHIMS about the size of a quarter with a small recessed edge. 1200.00!!! Next time I will make my own. (just kidding FAA if you are reading this!)
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 21:48 |
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8736
Post Likes: +9464
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: Hopefully not overstepping my bounds here but since there seems to be the need for one: A forum for owners....and anyone interested in this incredible bird. https://piaggiodriver22.discussion.community/categoriesDon't laugh at it I have never tried this before.....
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 23:17 |
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Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6674
Post Likes: +5983
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Aerostar Superstar 2
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I had plans on starting a forum a few years back for the Avanti, but then realized I have enough of a headache admin-ing the Twin Commander Forum. But I'm glad someone started it! Can we migrate there or is it better if it remains here? Username Protected wrote: It would be amazing if there had been a TPE331-10 STC to put on the Piaggio. It would halve the engine operating costs and cut fuel consumption with 20%. It would literally be unbeatable in the marketplace with those on. it would be amazing... amazingly awful. The Piaggio as she stands is the unbeatable turboprop. Now a case could be made for the TPE331-14. But a marginal case.
Yeah, the -10's probably marginal in power up high, but the -12's would probably provide enough. That's the most powerful of the "small block" TPE's. -14 certainly has the power, but they're also on par with PT6 overhaul costs and TBO, so more of a sideways move.
Gulfstream had long gone plans for the Turbo Commander 1200 with the -12's in them. In the end, the performance increase was not worth the extra hassle to certify it, so it never got finished.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2020, 23:57 |
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Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4950
Post Likes: +5628
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: I had plans on starting a forum a few years back for the Avanti, but then realized I have enough of a headache admin-ing the Twin Commander Forum. But I'm glad someone started it! Can we migrate there or is it better if it remains here? I really think it would make sense for the Jeffs to start a sub-forum for certain types - the Commanders and the Piaggios are among them. I know the title says "BeechTalk," but they've really become "PlaneTalk."
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 28 Nov 2020, 00:13 |
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Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6674
Post Likes: +5983
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Aerostar Superstar 2
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Username Protected wrote: I had plans on starting a forum a few years back for the Avanti, but then realized I have enough of a headache admin-ing the Twin Commander Forum. But I'm glad someone started it! Can we migrate there or is it better if it remains here? I really think it would make sense for the Jeffs to start a sub-forum for certain types - the Commanders and the Piaggios are among them. I know the title says "BeechTalk," but they've really become "PlaneTalk."
I agree. The sheer member size makes this forum unique.
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