banner
banner

04 Dec 2025, 10:34 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Garmin International (Banner)



Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2015, 23:44 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14577
Post Likes: +12366
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Flew a trip in the Citation V from KSDL-KVNY-KHZL (Hazelton, PA) last night. It was an overnight trip with a guy on a schedule. Landed at 9AM in the morning after 5 hours plus a fuel stop in Salina. Dropped the guy and his entourage off, refueled and taxied out to head to Michigan for a couple days in the office before a return trip with the same party.

Pushed the throttles forward only to see no rise in N1, N2 or ITT on left engine. It was at idle speeds despite being at full throttle. Abort, taxi off, shut down.

Quick call to maintenance team in SDL - P3 or FCU issue. Call to P&W - same conclusion. No jet A&P on field. P&W willing to roll a team from West Va - 5 hour trip each way. Total cost to "troubleshoot" estimated at $10k!!! If it is the FCU (fuel control unit) estimated cost $80k-100k.

Pass info to aircraft manager and then to owner. Cessna Service Center calls. They are 2.5 hours away and can send a team. Sure enough, 2 guys show with another on his way. Working on a ramp, in the rain, these guys get busy on a diagnosis.

FCU coming tomorrow. Overhaul exchange $17k. Eight hours to install. Airworthy by 5pm just 36 hours after the original WTF?

I must say that both the P&W and Cessna guys were a dream to work with. Called back when they said they would. Showed up when they said they would. Didn't bitch about anything. Even when Cessna was chosen the P&W guys threw their support behind Cessna sending documentation and recommendations.

Been a long time since I saw that kind of service in any industry. Hats off boys!

Funny story. KHZL is a small airport. No other jets on the ramp. First Cessna guy pulls up and introduces himself. Says he had only heard a little bit about the issue and listens to my version of events. We are standing 50 yards from the plane when he asks with a quizzical look on his face "where is the plane?" (Channel Charlie Daniels) Now I eye this young fella real suspicious like and say - boy, are you pulling my leg? He looks up over my shoulder and sees the aircraft sitting there, wounded but regal. He smiles and says oops. I say, son, I don't have a good feeling about this. You are scaring me. He winks and says "it's been a long day for both of us" I will drink to that!

_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2015, 01:17 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/08/11
Posts: 919
Post Likes: +1279
Location: California
Aircraft: C182 B350
I'll be darned.

I flew that very aircraft from N. CA to MMHO and back last April, and it ran just fine!

Looks like you've been flying the pants off 'er...not terribly surprising to see some shakedown issues; she didn't work so hard before.

I only flew that one trip, so I have no useful historical data for you. Best wishes!

_________________
NOT FOR NAVIGATIONAL USE


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2015, 09:01 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/11/14
Posts: 582
Post Likes: +25
Location: KCOE/KSFF
Great story Mark, and it's nice to see that everyone pulled together to make things right :clap:


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2015, 09:13 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 07/11/11
Posts: 2424
Post Likes: +2811
Location: Woodlands TX
Aircraft: C525 D1K Waco PT17
Great story Mark. It is also a great reminder of why engine programs are important. If it would have been the FCU at 80K out of pocket would be a bad day.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2015, 09:54 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/11/14
Posts: 582
Post Likes: +25
Location: KCOE/KSFF
Speaking of which Alex, are you going to be on the WI TAP program for the -1A's?

Username Protected wrote:
Great story Mark. It is also a great reminder of why engine programs are important. If it would have been the FCU at 80K out of pocket would be a bad day.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2015, 21:39 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14577
Post Likes: +12366
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Out with the old!


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2015, 21:52 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5193
Post Likes: +3038
Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
FCUs seem to be the weak spot for many turbines. Better if they fail on the ground then in the air.

Cessna Service is why many folks buy Citations.

_________________
Allen


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2015, 08:27 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 26338
Post Likes: +13085
Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
Username Protected wrote:

Cessna Service is why many folks buy Citations.

+1

What would've happened if this happened in a Piaggio Avanti?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2015, 08:38 
Offline



User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 02/23/08
Posts: 6468
Post Likes: +9910
Company: Schulte Booth, P.C.
Location: Easton, MD (KESN)
Aircraft: 1958 Bonanza 35
Attachment:
images.jpg


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
- As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

Robert D. Schulte
http://www.schultebooth.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2015, 08:41 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 03/04/13
Posts: 2795
Post Likes: +1413
Location: Little Rock, Ar
Aircraft: A36 C560 C551 C560XL
Username Protected wrote:

Cessna Service is why many folks buy Citations.

+1

What would've happened if this happened in a Piaggio Avanti?


Probably nothing:)
Seriously, one could assume one could get an FCU for the P&W. If the FCU is specific to the Piaggio, price and availability might be challenging.
Robert

Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2015, 09:43 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5193
Post Likes: +3038
Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
Username Protected wrote:

Cessna Service is why many folks buy Citations.

+1

What would've happened if this happened in a Piaggio Avanti?


Probably would have taken 3 to 5 days instead of 36 hours to get flying again.
_________________
Allen


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2015, 09:55 
Online




User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 36068
Post Likes: +14455
Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
Out with the old!

It just doesn't seem like that part ought to cost $100k new or $17k to "overhaul".

_________________
-lance

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2015, 10:13 
Online




User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 36068
Post Likes: +14455
Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
Funny story. KHZL is a small airport. No other jets on the ramp. First Cessna guy pulls up and introduces himself. Says he had only heard a little bit about the issue and listens to my version of events. We are standing 50 yards from the plane when he asks with a quizzical look on his face "where is the plane?" (Channel Charlie Daniels) Now I eye this young fella real suspicious like and say - boy, are you pulling my leg? He looks up over my shoulder and sees the aircraft sitting there, wounded but regal. He smiles and says oops. I say, son, I don't have a good feeling about this. You are scaring me. He winks and says "it's been a long day for both of us" I will drink to that!


About 40 years ago I was working as a field tech for a computer company that was competing with IBM in a small niche. To woo customers from Big Blue the company had put together a service organization that claimed to equal IBM's 24/7 2 hr response capability but some of it was more appearance than reality in the early days.

In one case they won a customer in a remote corner of Michigan which was way more than 2 hrs away from the nearest service location and the salesman lied (like that never happens) by promising that a local service office was being opened nearby. What actually happened was that they set up a "foreign exchange" telephone on the local system (what might be called permanent call forwarding today) so that the new customer thought he was calling locally for service even though those calls went to somewhere a few states away.

They got away with this for almost a year but one day a call for service came in from this customer and there was no way any tech could get there sooner than 12 hours so the salesman talked a buddy of his into impersonating a service tech. The threw a few techie looking tools into a briefcase and the buddy arrived at the site within the promised 2 hr window and was escorted into the computer room. Having never seen any computer equipment up close before in his life let alone the specific unit needing repairs he casually asked where the item was.

Unfortunately the answer was "You just set your tool case on it" and worse yet that the person answering the question was the same VP who'd authorized the original purchase based on a promise of local support and was in the process of negotiating the sale of more units.

_________________
-lance

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2015, 11:11 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/18/13
Posts: 1152
Post Likes: +770
Aircraft: 737
Username Protected wrote:
Out with the old!

It just doesn't seem like that part ought to cost $100k new or $17k to "overhaul".


Yeah, I'm having trouble with that also. I really, really, really want a jet. I feel like it would help my business and improve my life, and I also feel strongly that it would improve safety margins. But I'm having a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around what appears to be the industry mantra of, "he's got a jet, let's squeeze his wallet as hard as we can".

I do business with a place in Wisconsin called Jet Air. The shop manager, a guy named Joe Megna, makes it a point to shop around for parts when they're needed. I lost a mixing valve in the environmental unit about 100 hours ago in the Mits, and he shopped it around for me. It worked out that the part number was the same for several of the Citations, so he called Cessna as a possible source among others. From Cessna, the part was a little over $8,000.00 overhauled and they wouldn't ship it directly to me. I don't remember where he got finally got it, but it was like $600.00. For the record, $600.00 is still a big premium for such a simple part, but it's manageable. $8,000.00, not so much.

Summation: guys like Joe at Jet Air are the reason I can afford to still do this, folks like Cessna are the reason I might not. I'll be having a long talk with Joe before I pull the trigger on a jet. If he knows where most of the parts can come from such that I won't feel the need for lube before I buy them, then I'm in. If not, I'll stick with what I got.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Saw First Hand What Happens When a Citation Breaks
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2015, 11:17 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/08/12
Posts: 12581
Post Likes: +5190
Company: Mayo Clinic
Location: Rochester, MN
Aircraft: Planeless in RST
:popcorn:

_________________
BFR 8/18; IPC 8/18


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next



Gallagher Aviation, LLC (Bottom Banner)

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2025

.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.midwest2.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.8flight logo.jpeg.
.Aircraft Associates.85x50.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.AeroMach85x100.png.
.daytona.jpg.
.b-kool-85x50.png.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.mcfarlane-85x50.png.
.holymicro-85x50.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.KingAirMaint85_50.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.tat-85x100.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.ocraviation-85x50.png.
.sarasota.png.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.suttoncreativ85x50.jpg.
.puremedical-85x200.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.Elite-85x50.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.avnav.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.rnp.85x50.png.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.garmin-85x200-2021-11-22.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.v2x.85x100.png.
.Plane AC Tile.png.
.BT Ad.png.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.aerox_85x100.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.performanceaero-85x50.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.LogAirLower85x50.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.camguard.jpg.