yep... nearly identical. we have 806lbs available with full fuel, but we never need full fuel.

I've done a 1550nm leg going west (although it was slow), and a 1050 going west with 85kts headwind.

I have pretty limited experience in bigger planes, and no turbine time, so not much to add to the conversation, other than to add the Chieftain.
I enjoyed my time flying it.

That said, I am looking at an M350 for the pressurization, and long fuel range.

That's messed up. Must not have talked to the right folks.

Mike, curious where you think insurance should be first year on a 501sp and a king air 90 in this situation? Then50k sounded high…[/quote]

My insurance for my 501 Eagle II was $22k for $800k
Hull. I have 1500TT and had no turbine or Jet. Then I had to change to another company that allowed dry leasing. Then it went to $35k annually.

The training is the same time for most planes like PA46 or 421 that have insurance required training. The only difference is they charge a lot more for jet training. Even though it takes the same amount of time. My 421 was $4500 for initial and the 501 is $15k. Both the same process and in my plane.

Maintenance cost for first year of 501 has been less than my PA46 and 421.

Sure it cost more to fly a jet. But it’s way safer and much more comfortable. Right now JetA is expensive so it hurts. But when I got my 501 it was average $3.50 gallon and trip cost was about the same as my 421 burning 100LL.

If you can afford it there is no reason to not fly a jet.

Mike[/quote]

“ If you can afford it there is no reason to not fly a jet”. If your aunt had balls she’d be your uncle, well maybe not today. How about field length at smaller airports, back country and grass?

Todd,

If you’re looking for more room, useful load, keeping your speed+ and prefer to remain piston powered, I’d recommend the 1976-79 Cessna 421C. 1980-85 models came with trailing link gear but Cessna didn’t change the gross weight, so you lose a little over 100# of UL with those models. I have a 78 and with full mains (203 useable), I can carry 1100#. Frequently fly in the flight levels and truing out at about 209kts. (8900’ cabin at FL250). Two relief tubes for the guys (game changer) and a sit down potty for the gals. Pressurization, A/C and FIKI another couple of game changers. Your family will love it and so will you. Don’t fear the geared engines either. Plenty of them for sale to choose from - just have to find the right one..
Like any aircraft - Maintenance is, well, it’s maintenance. Find one that is flown regularly. Those are the ones that are maintained. Avoid the ones that have been sitting for who knows how long, (Unless you’re interested in a project). Regularly flown aircraft seem to be project enough for anyone.

Your flight time experience would certainly make you insurable in one and the training is not difficult. They fly very nicely on one engine too.

Personally, I’d probably move up to TP or even a 501 if I could afford it.. I believe the 425 would be a perfect fit for me. But, it’s just not in the cards.. I’m happy to have what I have.

Good luck with whatever you choose to buy!
John

I will always advocate for a Citation Mustang if the budget and mission allows. We just picked our managed 510 up from West Star from its annual maintenance event and its nearly identical to what I spend in my 58P in mx.

Wow, that seems low. I've always figured a Mustang is about $1500/hr to run all in, with an M2 being closer to $2200.

Am i off by more than 15%?

Wow, that seems low. I've always figured a Mustang is about $1500/hr to run all in, with an M2 being closer to $2200.

Am i off by more than 15%?

Thanks. Feels like a Baron should be less...

These topics are such an alchemy, I like 'all in' pricing because it provides one number and if you get enough numbers you get a range and from that a bell curve. Yeah the hangar, insurance, crew all vary but not by that much: pro pilot flown insurance $20k to low time single pilot aspirations $100k/yr? I can impute an $80k delta divided by my own situation: hours, experience, etc. Unlikely the all in hourly rate for an M2 is $1k or $5k, so I start to narrow it down to an average.

Plus it's easier for me to ask people I've just met or met online for one number. Or maybe i should ask for one number plus hours flown that year.

If someone wants to share everything in extreme detail that's great too.

This Burns Money


I thought it stood for Money?

I loved our TBM, but WOW did it burn through cash. they do hold their value extremely well though. you likely will never lose money on a well-maintained TBM.

Todd,
I went from a TN A36 to a C421C. The family was very thankful for the change. A whole lot bigger, great pressurization, and faster. Almost always travel at FL200-220. I plane on 215-220 kts TAS. Great range and good load hauling capability. A bonus is the engines are easy to start, hot or cold. It’s our mini-airliner.

The downsides are fuel flow, around 44 GPH and frequent trips to a maintenance specialist for oil changes every 25 hours. The specialty shop gives it a careful seam on every oil change and fixes little things that crop up. It has however been very reliable and has only stranded me once in 3 year due to a cracked cylinder.

If I could upgrade to turbine power I would however. Reliability and performance gains would be substantial, but so would the cost of ownership.

Chris C.

Chris,
I am not so sure about your last sentence. Turbines don't have routine oil changes, or vacuum pumps, or turbochargers or cylinders. You burn 44gph doing 220kts. I burn 58gph doing 250kts, 260kts when it is cold. Jet A costs less, sometimes a lot less. My last en-route fuel stop was in Billings MT. Jet A was $3.88. 100LL is $4.75 Jet A is $5.17 ay my home field (KHIO), 100LL is $7.60. Contract JetA at home is even less, but I can't get that price at my home field per CAA rules. My 100/200 hr inspections (essentially annuals the way I fly) average around $11K. 600hr was $16K and happen every three years and I will be due this fall. My one unscheduled maintenance issue cost $3K and took a day and a half to resolve. My plane has only been in the shop for any reason for the past 3 1/2 years for scheduled maintenance, in other words it has gone a year between shop visits for the past three years. This is not unusual for turbine planes I am told. In fairness I have a hot section inspection coming due this fall that will likely approach $100K, about what an engine replacement on a 421 would go for. The hot section interval is 1800hrs, so those don't happen very often. Not knocking pressurized piston twins, but there are turbine aircraft you can operate for similar money.

Jeff Axel
N228WP

Chris,
I am not so sure about your last sentence. Turbines don't have routine oil changes, or vacuum pumps, or turbochargers or cylinders. You burn 44gph doing 220kts. I burn 58gph doing 250kts, 260kts when it is cold. Jet A costs less, sometimes a lot less. My last en-route fuel stop was in Billings MT. Jet A was $3.88. 100LL is $4.75 Jet A is $5.17 ay my home field (KHIO), 100LL is $7.60. Contract JetA at home is even less, but I can't get that price at my home field per CAA rules. My 100/200 hr inspections (essentially annuals the way I fly) average around $11K. 600hr was $16K and happen every three years and I will be due this fall. My one unscheduled maintenance issue cost $3K and took a day and a half to resolve. My plane has only been in the shop for any reason for the past 3 1/2 years for scheduled maintenance, in other words it has gone a year between shop visits for the past three years. This is not unusual for turbine planes I am told. In fairness I have a hot section inspection coming due this fall that will likely approach $100K, about what an engine replacement on a 421 would go for. The hot section interval is 1800hrs, so those don't happen very often. Not knocking pressurized piston twins, but there are turbine aircraft you can operate for similar money.

Jeff Axel
N228WP