I think the biggest issues is you are getting your performance data from Google. Haha

Mike

I would reference the aircraft’s AFM. That’s the best place to get performance data for a specific Aircraft. Way too many variables and different things on the internet. It could pull up performance for any citation and you wouldn’t know it. Data on Google is scary.

I have mine in digital form and added to Foreflight documents. I would bet the plane you fly has a digital AFM


Mike

Do the 501s have anti skid?

Some yes, some no. Same answer with TRs.

Some yes, some no. Same answer with TRs.

I don’t like anti-skid on the 501. They are ultra sensitive. The normal brakes are just fine.

I’ve never heard of anybody ever locking a brake up on a non antiskid 501. Super rare option I don’t think they made more than 20 or 30 of them.

The only time I feel my anti skid working is on ice. Not sure if it helps or not but it does give me a sense of when it’s slipping. I don’t fly into super short runways though.

Mike

It depends.

Weight? Temp? Wind? Runway slope? Runway wet?

At ISA, no wind, 11,850 lbs, dry, level, takeoff distance is 2930 ft per the AFM. This is with an engine failure at V1, and then reaching 35 ft AGL, so the ground run is under 2000 ft.

Colder, less weight, headwind all reduce the numbers. Tailwind, higher weight (there are mods to go to 12,500 lbs), not dry all increase the numbers.

On a 90F day at 11,850 lbs, the numbers go over 3600 ft. That's still a ground run about 2600 ft, and with an engine failure, so there is margin in those numbers. An engine failure just before V1 has you stopping right at the end of the runway.

Landing is no issue, under 2500 ft and that is with a 50 ft threshold crossing height, so 1500 ft ground roll, at max weight. This is even at very high temps. You just got to be on speed.

In my V, 3600 ft is very doable for the same mission (X lbs flown Y miles). At 15,000 lbs takeoff, I can use 3600 ft up to 100 F. That's 5,800 lbs useful load to split between fuel and cabin. At max weight of 15,900 lbs, temps have to be under 88 F. If I have 10 knots headwind, temps have to be under 98 F.

Mike C.

I have felt a LOT of variation between Citation airframes on brake feel in general. Some work great, some are incredibly grabby, some occasionally fail entirely. I think it’s more the “power brake” feature and not anti skid, but at least on the early IIs you have to turn off anti skid when you’re taxiing…

Robert

I've never braked hard enough to trigger anti skid, so I don't know what it feels like.

This is likely due to the V having slow Vref speeds, having TRs, and the brakes are very effective naturally.

Someday, on some icy or snowy runway, I will give them a try to make sure they work. I don't really want to try on a dry runway given what tires cost.

Mike C.

In my experience, "grabby" brakes are usually an indication of air in the lines.

This can be due to bad bleeding by the shop. It can also be caused by a slowly leaking emergency brake valve leaking nitrogen into the system.

The brake controller can also be at fault, but bleeding the brakes and checking the emergency brake valve are cheaper to try first.

Mike C.

Good point! Agree! The last one I flew with power brakes required about 1/4” of pedal movement to fully actuate the brakes. They were so sensitive.

N551MS has it, and I have had to use the nitrogen bottle twice in that airframe to get it stopped. Both times the mechanic said it was an issue with a squat switch. I don't know if that is something specific to the 501, but I have become spring loaded to reach for the red knob!

I have read your accounts. I am a huge fan of KISS - the fewer things to go wrong the better.