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28 Oct 2025, 15:06 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 26 May 2025, 23:45 
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how often do crashes actually occur in the precise moment of rotation?

For King Airs, frighteningly often.

At least 7 times in the last 12 years or so, a King Air has rotated, immediately had an engine fail, and ended up in a very bad way. This has happened at Long Beach, Tucson, Wichita, Melbourne, Addison, Hayward, and in Oahu. I may have missed others, these are just the ones I know about.

The accident profiles all match the following:

Occurs within seconds of rotating.
Never gets above 200 ft AGL.
Crashes within 6000 ft of takeoff start.
Crashes on or near airport property.
Crashes off to the side of the runway with a very large yaw or bank into the ground.

This is WAY too often for it just to be random chance in those few seconds at rotation.

The Addison accident has the best video, all of them are very similar:



This was a 350, by the way.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 26 May 2025, 23:49 
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None of them were engine failures.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 26 May 2025, 23:50 
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Location: Bozeman, MT
All I know is what I see:

The only new jet A burning airplanes in this class based at my field are:

1. SETP - Piper M Class and PC-12’s. No TBM’s.
2. CJ Jets - M2, CJ3’s. Oddly not many Phenoms.
3. Cirrus Jets.

I don’t see new King Airs. I think the market has spoken.

I think Textron knows it too. If they saw a new horizon, you would think they would have thrown a Garmin panel with Autoland in by now. No twin engine competitors; milk it to the end.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 26 May 2025, 23:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
All I know is what I see:

The only new jet A burning airplanes in this class based at my field are:

1. SETP - Piper M Class and PC-12’s. No TBM’s.
2. CJ Jets - M2, CJ3’s. Oddly not many Phenoms.
3. Cirrus Jets.

I don’t see new King Airs. I think the market has spoken.

I think Textron knows it too. If they saw a new horizon, you would think they would have thrown a Garmin panel with Autoland in by now. No twin engine competitors; milk it to the end.


Textron’s new turboprop has G3000 and Autoland.

It’s called the Denali and at least for private use it will replace the King Air.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 26 May 2025, 23:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
how often do crashes actually occur in the precise moment of rotation?

For King Airs, frighteningly often.

I will avoid short fields in a King Air then.

Pretty sure no one has died in a Piaggio via engine failure at takeoff.
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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 27 May 2025, 00:00 
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None of them were engine failures.

This is some strange usage of the word "failure" I wasn't previously aware of.

Every single case was lack of thrust in one engine in such a critical regime of flight that the pilot(s) couldn't handle it. Some of the pilots were highly experienced, too.

Compare what happens in a V when an engine fails:



I doubt the passengers even notice. For the record, that was my first time doing a V1 cut in the actual airplane after several times in the sim. It was easy.

I hope no turboprop owner tries to make a similar video. Far too risky.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 27 May 2025, 00:03 
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I will avoid short fields in a King Air then.

All the crashes I referenced were on decently long runways.

Quote:
Pretty sure no one has died in a Piaggio via engine failure at takeoff.

Not sure that yet represents a statistically significant difference in risk given the difference in exposure from the far greater numbers of King Airs out there.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 27 May 2025, 00:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
I will avoid short fields in a King Air then.

All the crashes I referenced were on decently long runways.

Quote:
Pretty sure no one has died in a Piaggio via engine failure at takeoff.

Not sure that yet represents a statistically significant difference in risk given the difference in exposure from the far greater numbers of King Airs out there.

Mike C.


We believe most, if not all, of these accidents were caused by “power lever migration” a situation where the left throttle lever migrates back to the idle position.

The problem is exasperated because autofeather is disabled because the aircraft thinks it is an intentional control input.

All that is required to prevent this from happening is to tighten the friction locks.

I’m hoping at this point that all King Air pilots are aware of this issue and are religiously checking those friction locks, especially post maintenance.
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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 27 May 2025, 00:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
We believe...

Who is "we"?

Does that include the NTSB?

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 27 May 2025, 00:58 
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Username Protected wrote:
We believe...

Who is "we"?

Mike C.


King Air experts.

As far as I know, the NTSB has been unable to determine any official cause other than LOC.
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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 27 May 2025, 08:16 
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I've posted on here numerous times that out of those 6+ crashes none were officially blamed on the boogeyman PLM (Power Lever Migration). Some had reasons TBD. I don't have the list handy, someone else actually posted an in-depth analysis of each crash but some were water in the fuel tanks, a few were excessive takeoff/bank angles, some had drugs in their system, ADS had numerous factors such as rotating 10 knots too slow and being overweight.

I've done V1 cuts in a 350 as part of training and V2 cuts in a 90, they weren't a big deal.

That said, I'd prefer a citation any day for a lot of reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 27 May 2025, 08:45 
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Here’s a little fun exercise, the next few King Airs you climb into, just push the power levers forward and then loosen the friction locks and see what happens.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 27 May 2025, 09:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
I've posted on here numerous times that out of those 6+ crashes none were officially blamed on the boogeyman PLM (Power Lever Migration). Some had reasons TBD. I don't have the list handy, someone else actually posted an in-depth analysis of each crash but some were water in the fuel tanks, a few were excessive takeoff/bank angles, some had drugs in their system, ADS had numerous factors such as rotating 10 knots too slow and being overweight.

I've done V1 cuts in a 350 as part of training and V2 cuts in a 90, they weren't a big deal.

That said, I'd prefer a citation any day for a lot of reasons.



There are many more than six left turn after take LOC crashes that PLM can not be eliminated as a possible cause.

Here is a previous post that outlines some of them. It is a very deadly problem that is hard to pinpoint due to lack of forensic evidence because most are total burn crashes.

I think this is the previous post you referred to:

“Following is a list of King Air series accidents taken from the ‪aviation-safety.net‬ website that I believe power lever migration (PLM) could have been a contributing factor in.

Almost all are takeoff/departure accidents with loss of thrust from the  left or both engines resulting in loss of control. Most were confirmed to have the landing gear still extended and propellers not in the feathered positions.  Most rolled left and cartwheeled or rolled inverted.  Most burned and some landed in water.  Most resulted in fatalities to all occupants.  The most recent was less than ten days ago.  I have talked to many King Air pilots that had nearly crashed because of it.

PLM typically occurs when the pilot removes his right hand from the power levers to rotate the aircraft in the pitch axis to a climb attitude using both hands on the control yoke or to select the landing gear up just after rotating.

The spring back action of the King Air power lever is a peculiarity that other similar models do not have.  This is primarily due to the existence of a spring mounted at the engine end of the teleflex type housed push pull cable to mitigate cable hysteresis.

Most aircraft have pilot adjustable friction locks but since it is not a danger in other models (due to non existence of the spring) it is often overlooked or neglected.  It is a common practice for the friction locks to be loosened by mechanics during routine maintenance and scheduled inspection procedures.

A large percentage of the crashes listed below occurred during the first flight out of maintenance.

Line item #24 referenced below that occurred in 2000 in the UK is the only one that lists PLM as the official cause.  This was confirmed by analyzing the prop RPM disparities recorded on the cockpit voice recorder (CVR).  Page 15 of the linked  final report has a summary of flight testing duplicating the phenomenon showing that it can result in an uncontrollable aircraft in the configuration that it occurred.

Some are listed as “cause unknown” and a couple are listed as rudder trim improperly configured for takeoff.  These were crashes that the spooled mechanical actuated rudder trim tab jack screw mechanisms were found at the extreme travel limit.  I believe that any position other than at one extreme limit or the other would be highly unlikely after a violent high speed crash.  The tails of the aircraft were completely separated.  The only way that the jack screws would stay in the set positions is in the unlikely event that both of the two attaching cables that run the full length of the fuselage happened to snap or shear at precisely the same instant.

Line item #27 referenced below occurred 2019 in Addison Tx will likely  list PLM as a contributing factor or cause.  The NTSB docket with supporting evidence is linked but the final report has not yet been released.

Line item 18 that occurred departing Baton Rouge in 2013 was written up as the pilot was not familiar with the newer avionics package.  This aircraft departed on a perfectly clear day and the pilot had thousands of hours many of which were  in an almost identical model aircraft.  It is absurd to think that the instrument panel configuration had anything to do with it immediately rolling to the left and crashing in a fireball.  A close friend of mine knew the pilot very well and flew with him regularly.  He concurs.

I think it is unlikely that an experienced pilot would lose control and crash into a building in perfect weather because he tested positive for drugs. People that saw him just prior said he was fine.

Another factor could be broken friction locks with the aluminum rivet that attaches to the stainless friction band. I found one SDR that pilot encountered PLM in cruise when the rivet failed. A friend that owns a King Air shop has found broken friction locks during routine inspections that the pilot was not aware of. It is prudent to test and adjust the friction lock function prior to engine start. If the rivet is sheared it will still tighten down normally when doing the check list. King Airs are in use all over the world and I have talked to many pilots that have never even heard of PLM. There will be more crashes due to it.


1.
 King Air 200 BB245 Australia 2/21/80
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... p?id=19800
2.
King Air ‪B200‬ BB1642  Alaska  1/16/20
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20200116-0

3.
King Air ‪B200‬ BB1485 India  12/22/15
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20151222-0

4.
King Air ‪B200‬ BB254 Portugal  11/12/03
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20030912-0

5.
King Air 300 BF83 Mexico  4/30/13
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20130430-0

6.
King Air 200 BB93 Bulgaria  7/27/77
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19770727-0

7.
King Air 200C BL33 Bolivia 11/26/95
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19951126-0

8.
King Air ‪B200‬ BB377 Colombia  10/11/07
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20071011-1

9.
King Air 200 BB849 Long Beach Ca.  3/17/11
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20110316-0

10.
King Air ‪BB767‬ South Africa  4/13/87
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19870413-1

11.
King Air 200 BB174 Chicago Il  11/11/99
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19991111-0

12.
King Air 200 BB838 South Africa 6/28/93
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19930628-0

13.
King Air 200 BB22 Nigeria  11/28/05
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20051128-0

14.
King Air 200 BL131 Turks & Caicos  2/6/07
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20070206-1

15.
King Air ‪B200‬ BB1686 Wichita Ks.  10/30/14
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20141030-0

16.
King Air 200 BB 127 Mexico  11/3/08
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20081103-0

17.
King Air ‪B200‬ BB1198 Chicago Il.  8/20/20
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20200820-0

18.
King Air B200GT BY24 Baton Rouge La.  6/7/13
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20130607-1

19.
King Air 200 BB1906 India  3/27/14
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20140327-0


20.
King Air ‪B200‬ BB1510 Five-Point Ca.  1/13/17
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20170113-0

21.
King Air 200 BB153 Canada  1/27/97
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19970128-0

22.
King Air ‪B200‬ BB1750 Hayward Ca.  9/16/09
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20090916-0

23.
King Air 200/RC12K FE9 Germany 6/30/10
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20100630-0

24.
King Air 200 BB648 Buena Vista Tx.  12/10/04
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20041210-1

25.
King Air 200 BB592 Green Bay Wi.  6/30/04
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20040630-1

26.
King Air ‪B200‬ B1592 French Polynesia  4/16/04
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20040416-0

27.
King Air ‪B300‬/350i  Dallas/Addison  6/30/19
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20190630-0

28.
King Air ‪B200‬ BB1544 Melbourne Australia  2/21/17
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20170221-0

29.
King Air ‪B200‬ BB1519 Black Bushe UK   12/23/2000
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20001223-1



90/100 series

1.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... L&IType=FA


2.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... L&IType=MA

3.

https://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation ... 009&akey=1


4.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... L&IType=FA

5.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... L&IType=MA

6.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/226410

7.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/170142


Beech 1900

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20160318-0

Here is a recent one that is not listed above

https://www.newsflare.com/video/594854/ ... -in-brazil

Again-no forensic evidence in the wreckage but the video makes it pretty obvious that it experienced loss of thrust on the left side at the same point when he would typically remove his hand from the power lever. Coincidence? I don’t think so.


There is no other turbine powered twin that has a LOC after takeoff crash history anything close to the King Air. And sadly, there will likely be more.


Last edited on 27 May 2025, 10:01, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 27 May 2025, 09:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
King Air experts.

I didn't realize they appointed you their spokesperson.

The NTSB doesn't seem convinced by your clan of experts, either, since I don't think any of the accident reports blamed PLM.

In any case, it is a collection of 7 shocking accidents that involve loss of thrust in one engine right at rotation.

Also, this might be number 8 on my list:

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/475625

It got a little further than the rest from the airport, though, but appears to be engine failure right after takeoff as well.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: A tale of two workhorses Citation V vs King Air 350
PostPosted: 27 May 2025, 09:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
King Air experts.

I didn't realize they appointed you their spokesperson.

The NTSB doesn't seem convinced by your clan of experts, either, since I don't think any of the accident reports blamed PLM.

In any case, it is a collection of 7 shocking accidents that involve loss of thrust in one engine right at rotation.

Also, this might be number 8 on my list:

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/475625

It got a little further than the rest from the airport, though, but appears to be engine failure right after takeoff as well.

Mike C.


That makes at least two more candidates since I compiled the list in my previous post.

I was at a friend’s salvage yard the other day and out of curiosity I tightened the friction lock as hard as I could in an old King Air. It took about all I had but I was able to turn it hard enough to brake the friction lock by hand. It then turned a few more turns and it seated normally.

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