As I fly along in my "unrealistic" Pratt equipped airplane, not sending buckets of money to Williams, and able to land on short, wet, snow, and ice covered runways, I will smile and think about how wrong you are about all that.

Mike C.

As I fly along in my "unrealistic" Pratt equipped airplane, not sending buckets of money to Williams, and able to land on short, wet, snow, and ice covered runways, I will smile and think about how wrong you are about all that.

Mike C.

My V is very long range, so I think you are off the mark here.


Smart people who don't waste money.

It is beneficial that a number of people have the same delusions you do. This helps keep the legacy Citations inexpensive so people like me can fly them at less cost.

The operating costs are quite low due to long inspection cycles (3 years phase 1-4, 6 years for phase 5), ability to choose engine shops, lots of ecosystem support for alternate parts, and so forth. I guarantee you that I am paying way less per mile than a Williams operator despite using more fuel.

Mike C.

My V is very long range, so I think you are off the mark here.


Smart people who don't waste money.

It is beneficial that a number of people have the same delusions you do. This helps keep the legacy Citations inexpensive so people like me can fly them at less cost.

The operating costs are quite low due to long inspection cycles (3 years phase 1-4, 6 years for phase 5), ability to choose engine shops, lots of ecosystem support for alternate parts, and so forth. I guarantee you that I am paying way less per mile than a Williams operator despite using more fuel.

Mike C.

False impressions can be among those reasons.


What failure points? A FADEC has a few billion of them and has software in it, too. I have simple mechanical fuel controllers. An SII with FJ44 maintenance log I reviewed had numerous FADEC entries, always have faults or other problems.

My performance is 420 KTAS cruise, 1800 nm range, can use less than 3000 ft runways most of the time, 9 seats. I sure don't feel like I'm flying a low performance airplane. Sure, a few planes can go a bit faster like a Premier, but that's only a few minutes advantage, and none if they are not able to use a closer airport with a shorter runway or have to make a fuel stop.


I can't afford a TBM 850, but I can afford to fly a Citation V.

Seems impossible, but true. The cost of capital just to buy a TBM 850 is more than my yearly fuel bill.

My plane is now worth 2 to 3 times what I paid for it, so I'm flying with a profit now if I sell it. Negative expense!


(cheap becomes expensive)

That's so much better than expensive becomes cheap, though. I'm not one of those folks who thinks spending more money always produces better results. Value is value, which is usually why the planes I buy increase in value when others recognize it, too.

Mike C.

Mr MacGregor,

Jeez, pretty arrogant man. Not everyone can be as rich as you

I’m comfortable, but not rich enough for a jet, especially a old jet

My comments are based of flying for a living and seeing how different demographics buy different aircraft, this also often falls into the mx category, the cheaper old jets also tend to have the most deferred or shade tree stuff under the proverbial hood

It’s like the guy who wants that S class benz, but doesn’t have the money, so instead of buying a certified used Lexus that’s in tip top shape and even has a warranty, he’s get a out of warranty salvage title S class


Same reason I can get paid the same, sometimes more, doing contract work in a PC12 compared to older jets I’m also typed in and have less concerns with their upkeep, not saying this is always, but it’s enough that it’s noticeable

I can pretty much afford anything I want up to a CJ3. I chose the Mustang because of its economy and it fits my mission. You are very very wrong about the V and SII Pratt powered versions. They are wonderfully capable airplanes that, when retrofitted with all Garmin Glass produce a bang for the buck thats unbeatable. The only reason I dont own one today is that my mission profile doesn't require ultra long range aircraft like Mikes did.

Reliability among airplanes over 10 years old is about the same by the way. The problem is parts and availability and their COST. I am able to somewhat defray that by being on ProParts but even thats getting a bit ridiculous at 20K a year minimum.

As far as flying for a living being the determinant here of knowledge care to compare logbooks with me?

I concur with the Weasel. From what I have seen, read and researched. I had a minute or two of interest in the FJ's a couple of times, but it takes less than 24 hours to come back to reality.

Regarding comparing logbooks, I have never been impressed by another pilots higher hours. Mark perhaps you should go compare appendages with the cliental that frequent your hotel's pool instead.

Are your logs you flying for yourself or flying the line, there is a big difference


But to each their own, I’m not versed on all airframes, but on the jet front the original prat version of the FJ powered plane I fly is vastly inferior, and the older jets I’ve come across just seem to have more funky and deferred issues compared to even older working prop planes (piston & turbine) I have flown YMMV


Plus I feel better being able to shut that bleed off at the engine



Vs

FWIW I took James’ original comment to be about the Pratt powered Beechjet compared to the Williams powered Beechjet, in which case he is correct, the FJ-44’s make a huge difference on that airframe.

Another FWIW I think the Citation V is one of the best overall jets made.

However, for clarity, it won’t go 1800nm and 420kts. You do have to pick one.

Part of the reason the FJs do that is that their bleed air is MUCH hotter than the JT15D due to higher compression ratio. They probably had to move the valve to the engine nacelle to certify it.

My bleed air temperature is around 190 C at worst (actually measured). That's not all that hot and it won't cook your tail. Indeed, the EMER pressurization system uses that air pretty much direct to keep the cabin pressurized (it does go through a venturi inside the cabin to mix it somewhat).

When they convert a JT15D to an FJ44, the hotter bleed may cause problems and they might have to add a precooler.

The bleed air lines are heavy wall stainless and never seem to be a problem since no one talks about them having issues. The shutoff valves are just inside the fuselage skin, so the exposed lines prior to the valve are minimal.

This doesn't seem like the critical issue to choose an airplane over.


My jet was Textron factory service center maintained since new with two corporate owners. That's top of the line maintenance with a price to match. I have the invoices and they are breathtaking!

I have found dozens of issues either missed or created by the service center. This typifies what I have found:

The FSC globbed RTV to fix a leak. These lines control your cabin pressurization which is pretty critical when you fly at FL450.

$50 in parts and 1 hour labor and it has been properly fixed.

Another example, the FSC put the wrong ignitor leads on my right engine. I had the pin style lead with the button style ignitors and they "mostly" worked by arcing across the gap inside the ignitor body. Just didn't check the part numbers properly and didn't notice they weren't the right type. Blows my mind.

Literally at least 30 such items and counting. That's what high priced service did to my plane.

My little shade tree shop and I have fixed them all and the plane is in WAY better shape than when I bought it. Price and quality are not necessarily correlated the way you would hope it is. Paying a lot does not assure things got fixed right, paying less does not mean it isn't done right.

Everything on my jet gets looked at and properly fixed, nothing gets a pass. This is the cheapest way to maintain this kind of airplane. Some jets don't get that treatment no matter the cost. It doesn't have to be an old jet to be broken.

Mike C.

You have several choices:

FL350 MCT 1200 nm, ~427 KTAS cruise

FL410 MCT 1520 nm, ~418 KTAS cruise

FL450 MCT 1670 nm, ~395 KTAS cruise

FL450 LRC 1860 nm, ~365 KTAS cruise

This is with reserves, not to dry tanks, no wind, ISA.

Mike C.

Part of the reason the FJs do that is that their bleed air is MUCH hotter than the JT15D due to higher compression ratio. They probably had to move the valve to the engine nacelle to certify it.

My bleed air temperature is around 190 C at worst (actually measured). That's not all that hot and it won't cook your tail. Indeed, the EMER pressurization system uses that air pretty much direct to keep the cabin pressurized (it does go through a venturi inside the cabin to mix it somewhat).

The bleed air lines are heavy wall stainless and never seem to be a problem since no one talks about them having issues. The shutoff valves are just inside the fuselage skin, so the exposed lines prior to the valve are minimal.

This doesn't seem like the critical issue to choose an airplane over.


My jet was Textron factory service center maintained since new with two corporate owners. That's top of the line maintenance with a price to match. I have the invoices and they are breathtaking!

I have found dozens of issues either missed or created by the service center. This typifies what I have found:

The FSC globbed RTV to fix a leak. These lines control your cabin pressurization which is pretty critical when you fly at FL450.

$50 in parts and 1 hour labor and it has been properly fixed.

Another example, the FSC put the wrong ignitor leads on my right engine. I had the pin style lead with the button style ignitors and they "mostly" worked by arcing across the gap inside the ignitor body. Just didn't check the part numbers properly and didn't notice they weren't the right type. Blows my mind.

Literally at least 30 such items and counting. That's what high priced service did to my plane.

My little shade tree shop and I have fixed them all and the plane is in WAY better shape than when I bought it. Price and quality are not necessarily correlated the way you would hope it is. Paying a lot does not assure things got fixed right, paying less does not mean it isn't done right.

Everything on my jet gets looked at and properly fixed, nothing gets a pass. This is the cheapest way to maintain this kind of airplane. Some jets don't get that treatment no matter the cost. It doesn't have to be an old jet to be broken.

Mike C.