BeechTalk - BT - Bought a PC-12

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 12:33

Username Protected wrote:

While I don't have a King Air checklist in front of me, I'm fairly sure the first item on the engine failure after liftoff checklist is "Power - Max Allowable" or something to that effect.

Greg

Power props flaps gear, you are correct

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 16:59

Username Protected wrote:

KA’s lost all their appeal to me when I started computing all the scheduled maintenance.

One of the arbitrary things in the FARs is the inspection rules are very different between a single engine turbine versus multiengine turbine airplanes.

The singles are subject to the ordinary annual inspection rules of 91.409(a). This means you can fly lots of hours and only have to inspect things once a year.

The multiengine turbine airplanes are subject to 91.409(e)(f). This requires that you put the plane on an inspection program and the default one is the one provided by the OEM.

The OEM program could be far more onerous or far less than an annual inspection, it all depends. I've heard the King Air one is rather onerous.

You can design your own program, but that takes FSDO approval and some effort.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 17:05

Username Protected wrote:

Sincere question: when did power lever migration become an issue in Beech turboprop operations? I flew 99s, C90s, F90s, 200s, and B200s in the early-mid 1980s. My last flight department had King Airs through the mid 1990s. I never once heard about power lever migration. Since all the Beech turboprops I flew were CAR3/FAR23 aircraft, the pilot flying had their hands on the power levers throughout takeoff and initial climb. Unintentional power lever movement wasn’t something I ever worried about. Coming from Barons and Navajos, King Air engine-out performance was a revelation.

Greg

About 4 years ago the forums decided it was a major issue. I see this on all types of forums, some type of paranoia develops around an actual issue but gets blown way out of proportion.

I got back into flying King Airs in 2016 and became more active on BT around then. The boogeyman then was torque runaways on departure killing everyone (also proven not true). I brought this up with my instructors and they never heard of any credible reports of this. Now, torque runaways are a thing of the past and it's all PLM. I posted the 6 most recent accidents are NONE are attributed to that, rather mostly poor airmanship. I can't find any NTSB reports where that may be the case.

Chip, I'm not following you. "It can’t be stressed enough that a King Air prop spooling down on takeoff with autofeather is a really big problem"

The autofeather will NOT engage if a power lever has moved back passed the microswitch.

I agree with the friction locks set tight the chances are extremely low. As I, Greg, and most KA drivers have stated it's happened to them once or twice and not really a big deal. Probably the same frequency a student/pilot experiences it in a trainer. You experience it and tighten the locks and it doesn't happen again. If it does, you know what to expect.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 17:06

Username Protected wrote:

The TBM is expensive to maintain if you do it properly, buyer beware there is a ton of stuff that can be deferred, but you'll have to pay the piper sooner or later.

How often do KA gear actuators get O/H and what is the price for each?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 17:09

Username Protected wrote:

The TBM is expensive to maintain if you do it properly, buyer beware there is a ton of stuff that can be deferred, but you'll have to pay the piper sooner or later.

How often do KA gear actuators get O/H and what is the price for each?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 17:18

Username Protected wrote:

The TBM is expensive to maintain if you do it properly, buyer beware there is a ton of stuff that can be deferred, but you'll have to pay the piper sooner or later.

How often do KA gear actuators get O/H and what is the price for each?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 18:37

I would wager that I could maintain a KA90 for equal or less than what I see for maintenance on the 850.

For example, TBM gear actuators is 10 years, roughly 8-9k per actuator. you can defer them, but if you ever sell the aircraft the buyer will expect a full OH on those parts. no freebie.

i guess some people defer them for a year or 2, so that you aren't doing all 3 in the same year.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 18:43

Username Protected wrote:

You mention the last six accidents, we suspect PLM in at least four of those, though it is near impossible to prove. If your instructors are at Flight Safety they will deny there is an issue.

That is not my recent (over the last two years or so) experience at FSI or CAE.
Good discussions in class concerning PLM. :thumbup:

Tom Clements and his books, the forum, and King Air pilots seem to be talking about it and placing emphasis on the issue which will hopefully increase alertness to checklist items and actions taken if there is a suspected power loss.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 18:50

Username Protected wrote:

How often do KA gear actuators get O/H and what is the price for each?

The gear overhaul is 6 years, assuming post 1984 models with hydraulic gear we typically see about $20k for gear overhaul. You can spend a lot more if you use a facility that can't do overhauls in house or if you use exchange gear.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 18:52

Username Protected wrote:

That's the entire gear including actuators or just actuators?

Just trying to compare my TBM experience.

Bearings bushings casings cylinders linkage, all of it

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 19:14

Username Protected wrote:

That's the entire gear including actuators or just actuators?

Just trying to compare my TBM experience.

Bearings bushings casings cylinders linkage, all of it

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 20:20

Username Protected wrote:

You mention the last six accidents, we suspect PLM in at least four of those, though it is near impossible to prove. If your instructors are at Flight Safety they will deny there is an issue.

That is not my recent (over the last two years or so) experience at FSI or CAE.
Good discussions in class concerning PLM. :thumbup:

Tom Clements and his books, the forum, and King Air pilots seem to be talking about it and placing emphasis on the issue which will hopefully increase alertness to checklist items and actions taken if there is a suspected power loss.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 20:23

Username Protected wrote:

How often do KA gear actuators get O/H and what is the price for each?

The inspection is 8000 cycles or 6 years, whichever comes first- there is no "overhaul" requirement, the inspection is around 150hrs of labor for a qualified/capable facility

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 20:48

Part 91 operators are not required to overhaul anything.

They still have to do inspections.

It doesn't matter what the program calls it, it matters what the process is.

An inspection is checking for airworthiness, something with pass/fail criteria.

An overhaul is adding new life.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2023, 21:21

Username Protected wrote:

…. but I wouldn't buy a SETP because I thought the maintenance schedule was less onerous or that the inspections would be cheaper. In fact, IMHO the King Air schedule is simpler than the Pilatus or the TBM. Unfortunately, it's not just annuals on either.

I would note that the Meridian has a great - and very affordable - maintenance schedule. Definitely an appeal of the plane and its one engine.

Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!