29 Jun 2025, 18:29 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 01:19 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20395 Post Likes: +25581 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Simpler is better for the last safety system in the chain. If the feature doesn't exist, then the feature can't fail. There is no backup if your mask gets stuck in the automatic <14,000 ft mode after depressurization. If you leave the mask in the wrong mode, then it has "failed". This is far more likely to occur by inadvertent manipulation during donning, or forgotten on a checklist. BTW, you can't see the mode switch when wearing the mask. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 10:01 |
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Joined: 06/30/22 Posts: 2351 Post Likes: +1351 Location: 0W3
Aircraft: Mooney 252/Encore
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Username Protected wrote: I think the Citation manual warns that a beard may interfere with the proper operation of the mask, but does anyone have any real-world experience or stories about that? Not with O2 masks, but with respirators for occupational exposure control. With a beard, you cannot get a tight seal. So with a normal inhalation, a significant amount of the air inhaled is leakage. A short stubble it worse than a full beard, but it is incremental. Under pressure, the poor seal leaks a LOT of O2. And prevents pressure build up in the mask.
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 10:08 |
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Joined: 06/30/22 Posts: 2351 Post Likes: +1351 Location: 0W3
Aircraft: Mooney 252/Encore
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Username Protected wrote: These oxygen masks confuse me. What I would want is a mask that has no modes at all, and uses no oxygen until the ambient pressure drops to above 14,000 ft, then properly manages between normal and 100% modes as the pressure further drops. Why isn't that the normal way they work? Also, what happens if the switch is in normal mode when you need it at FL450? Do you pass out or stay awake?
Mike C. The military ones supply no O2 under 10,000 feet cabin altitude. Then they supply up to 100% based on altitude. We were limited to 25,000 feet without pressurization. There was a 100% setting, if you needed it. And an Emergency, that supplied above ambient pressure to increase O2 partial pressure. The regulator I used looked like this:
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 10:15 |
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Joined: 11/07/11 Posts: 823 Post Likes: +468 Location: KBED, KCRE
Aircraft: Phenom 100
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Not sure why most of that functionality in our planes lives on our masks where you can’t see it.
Chip-
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 16:14 |
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Joined: 08/16/15 Posts: 3444 Post Likes: +4982 Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
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Just did hypoxia training again. The fella teaching taught in the military chambers a couple of decades before doing it in the civilian arena. He said if you aren’t wearing your mask with an explosive decompression in the high 30’s and 40’s you probably aren’t making it, and just fooling yourself. The startle factor, fogging, sound, pain of expanding gasses everywhere, as well as gases escaping your body from multiple orifices, the fumbling to get to the mask and then you are pretty much done. I have rapid decompressed to 25,000 fet in the chamber, and even that is unpleasant. Everyone is different though. I got through 25,000 feet playing Tetris pretty well. At 30,000 I was feeling pretty rough after 1 minute, and he made me go back on O2 when my sats dropped below 60%. My hypoxia symptoms had changed from when I was flight status as a youngun in the AF. I got euphoria then. Not a good first symptom, because I am always happy when flying. This time I had dysphoria, and felt like something bad was happening. The instructor said over time peoples symptoms can change.
_________________ Chuck Ivester Piper M600 Ogden UT
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 16:44 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20395 Post Likes: +25581 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: He said if you aren’t wearing your mask with an explosive decompression in the high 30’s and 40’s you probably aren’t making it Explosive decompression probably means the plane isn't making it either. Those events are extremely rare, like wings falling off. Structures are inspected, windows are checked, so the odds are extremely small. I believe there has never been an expulsive decompression of a Citation in its entire recorded history. This is true of many types. At FL450, 85% of the atmosphere is below you, so it is pretty much like walking out an airlock on a space station if the cabin empties. Water would boil at 116 F, 47 C. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 18:35 |
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Joined: 08/16/15 Posts: 3444 Post Likes: +4982 Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
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The CJ fleet is getting older.  Attachment: 5F0950FE-45CF-4F54-91BF-8F69CBD5C423.jpeg
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_________________ Chuck Ivester Piper M600 Ogden UT
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 19:16 |
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Joined: 11/30/12 Posts: 4881 Post Likes: +5533 Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: The CJ fleet is getting older.  Attachment: 5F0950FE-45CF-4F54-91BF-8F69CBD5C423.jpeg That's definitely a  picture, but that plane had close to NINETY THOUSAND cycles at over 8.0 psi. Most planes in the CJ fleet (and probably the Citations) haven't made it to nine thousand yet.
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 20:48 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20395 Post Likes: +25581 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: The CJ fleet is getting older. That 737 had 90,000 cycles when it blew its top due to extremely short flights among the Hawaiian islands. No CJ is even remotely close to that. Fatigue is mostly about cycles, not calendar age. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 19 Oct 2022, 12:18 |
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Joined: 03/23/08 Posts: 7357 Post Likes: +4088 Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx. Location: KDVT, 46U
Aircraft: IAR823, LrJet, 240Z
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Username Protected wrote: The Lear 35's with the Garrett 731 fan engines had a lot of reserve bleed air, and as I recall could maintain a 14,000 foot cabin altitude up in the 40's with a cabin window blown out, directing all the bleed air to the cabin. There's no chance that is correct. A hole the size of a window with 6 PSI drop across it (14,000 ft to FL400) would require abut 25,000 SCFM of air, or about one ton of air per minute. Just no way the engine can deliver that much air, maybe not even out the tailpipe. Mike C. We had the door lip seal on our Lear 31 (731) squirt out a few times when they first replaced it. Just that little seal popping out was enough to kill the pressurization.
Having some empty plastic shopping bags in the drawer by the door is now SOP. Just toss it near the door and it does its work like magic.
If you don't get it in time and kick off the Emergency Pressurization it can become disruptive to the days adventure.
TJ
_________________ Tom Johnson-Az/Wy AssuredPartners Aerospace Insurance Tj.Johnson@AssuredPartners.com C: 602-628-2701
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 19 Oct 2022, 12:26 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20395 Post Likes: +25581 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Having some empty plastic shopping bags in the drawer by the door is now SOP. Just toss it near the door and it does its work like magic. Video or it didn't happen! Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 19 Oct 2022, 13:24 |
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Joined: 11/22/08 Posts: 3090 Post Likes: +1054 Company: USAF Propulsion Laboratory Location: Dayton, OH
Aircraft: PA24, AEST 680, 421
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Username Protected wrote: We had the door lip seal on our Lear 31 (731) squirt out a few times when they first replaced it. Just that little seal popping out was enough to kill the pressurization.
Having some empty plastic shopping bags in the drawer by the door is now SOP. Just toss it near the door and it does its work like magic.
If you don't get it in time and kick off the Emergency Pressurization it can become disruptive to the days adventure.
TJ Had a door seal fail on the Aerostar. While a much smaller air source, not even close to pressurize the cabin. The door gap may be small, but the total area is larger than one might think.
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Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better? Posted: 19 Oct 2022, 13:31 |
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Joined: 03/23/08 Posts: 7357 Post Likes: +4088 Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx. Location: KDVT, 46U
Aircraft: IAR823, LrJet, 240Z
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Username Protected wrote: Having some empty plastic shopping bags in the drawer by the door is now SOP. Just toss it near the door and it does its work like magic. Video or it didn't happen! Mike C. Don't think I got one :( But it sealed up the gap good enough to Press-on!
Thankfully they fixed that annoying seal issue which I TOLD them what it was right from the start. The seal didn't have the holes punched on the inside (they said I was dumb...).
Come to find out, guess what- TJ was right, you got to punch the holes on the inside of the seal after install.  Lear door sucks compared to the Mighty Mu2 door (best door ever?) T
_________________ Tom Johnson-Az/Wy AssuredPartners Aerospace Insurance Tj.Johnson@AssuredPartners.com C: 602-628-2701
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