banner
banner

29 Jun 2025, 18:29 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Garmin International (Banner)



Reply to topic  [ 151 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2022, 01:19 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 20395
Post Likes: +25581
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Simpler is better for the last safety system in the chain. If the feature doesn't exist, then the feature can't fail. There is no backup if your mask gets stuck in the automatic <14,000 ft mode after depressurization.

If you leave the mask in the wrong mode, then it has "failed". This is far more likely to occur by inadvertent manipulation during donning, or forgotten on a checklist.

BTW, you can't see the mode switch when wearing the mask.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2022, 10:01 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/30/22
Posts: 2351
Post Likes: +1351
Location: 0W3
Aircraft: Mooney 252/Encore
Username Protected wrote:
I think the Citation manual warns that a beard may interfere with the proper operation of the mask, but does anyone have any real-world experience or stories about that?


Not with O2 masks, but with respirators for occupational exposure control.

With a beard, you cannot get a tight seal. So with a normal inhalation, a significant amount of the air inhaled is leakage. A short stubble it worse than a full beard, but it is incremental.

Under pressure, the poor seal leaks a LOT of O2. And prevents pressure build up in the mask.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2022, 10:08 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/30/22
Posts: 2351
Post Likes: +1351
Location: 0W3
Aircraft: Mooney 252/Encore
Username Protected wrote:
These oxygen masks confuse me. What I would want is a mask that has no modes at all, and uses no oxygen until the ambient pressure drops to above 14,000 ft, then properly manages between normal and 100% modes as the pressure further drops. Why isn't that the normal way they work? Also, what happens if the switch is in normal mode when you need it at FL450? Do you pass out or stay awake?

Mike C.


The military ones supply no O2 under 10,000 feet cabin altitude. Then they supply up to 100% based on altitude.

We were limited to 25,000 feet without pressurization.

There was a 100% setting, if you needed it. And an Emergency, that supplied above ambient pressure to increase O2 partial pressure.

The regulator I used looked like this:


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2022, 10:15 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/07/11
Posts: 823
Post Likes: +468
Location: KBED, KCRE
Aircraft: Phenom 100
Not sure why most of that functionality in our planes lives on our masks where you can’t see it.

Chip-


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2022, 14:25 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/08/13
Posts: 549
Post Likes: +313
Company: Citation Jet Exchange
Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: 58P C510 C525 Excel
I practice mask donning 1-2x per year in the various jets we fly. My big takeaway is I need to rip everything off my head first (headset and sunglasses), otherwise I fumble too long.

-Citation Jet Exchange

_________________
The Citation Jet Exchange
www.CitationJetX.com
CJs, Mustangs, Excels


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2022, 16:14 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/16/15
Posts: 3444
Post Likes: +4982
Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
Just did hypoxia training again. The fella teaching taught in the military chambers a couple of decades before doing it in the civilian arena. He said if you aren’t wearing your mask with an explosive decompression in the high 30’s and 40’s you probably aren’t making it, and just fooling yourself. The startle factor, fogging, sound, pain of expanding gasses everywhere, as well as gases escaping your body from multiple orifices, the fumbling to get to the mask and then you are pretty much done. I have rapid decompressed to 25,000 fet in the chamber, and even that is unpleasant. Everyone is different though. I got through 25,000 feet playing Tetris pretty well. At 30,000 I was feeling pretty rough after 1 minute, and he made me go back on O2 when my sats dropped below 60%. My hypoxia symptoms had changed from when I was flight status as a youngun in the AF. I got euphoria then. Not a good first symptom, because I am always happy when flying. This time I had dysphoria, and felt like something bad was happening. The instructor said over time peoples symptoms can change.

_________________
Chuck Ivester
Piper M600
Ogden UT


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2022, 16:44 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 20395
Post Likes: +25581
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
He said if you aren’t wearing your mask with an explosive decompression in the high 30’s and 40’s you probably aren’t making it

Explosive decompression probably means the plane isn't making it either. Those events are extremely rare, like wings falling off. Structures are inspected, windows are checked, so the odds are extremely small.

I believe there has never been an expulsive decompression of a Citation in its entire recorded history. This is true of many types.

At FL450, 85% of the atmosphere is below you, so it is pretty much like walking out an airlock on a space station if the cabin empties. Water would boil at 116 F, 47 C.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2022, 18:35 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/16/15
Posts: 3444
Post Likes: +4982
Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
The CJ fleet is getting older. :eek:

Attachment:
5F0950FE-45CF-4F54-91BF-8F69CBD5C423.jpeg


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Chuck Ivester
Piper M600
Ogden UT


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2022, 19:16 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4881
Post Likes: +5533
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
The CJ fleet is getting older. :eek:

Attachment:
5F0950FE-45CF-4F54-91BF-8F69CBD5C423.jpeg


That's definitely a :bugeye: picture, but that plane had close to NINETY THOUSAND cycles at over 8.0 psi. Most planes in the CJ fleet (and probably the Citations) haven't made it to nine thousand yet.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2022, 20:48 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 20395
Post Likes: +25581
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
The CJ fleet is getting older.

That 737 had 90,000 cycles when it blew its top due to extremely short flights among the Hawaiian islands.

No CJ is even remotely close to that.

Fatigue is mostly about cycles, not calendar age.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2022, 12:18 
Online


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 03/23/08
Posts: 7357
Post Likes: +4088
Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx.
Location: KDVT, 46U
Aircraft: IAR823, LrJet, 240Z
Username Protected wrote:
The Lear 35's with the Garrett 731 fan engines had a lot of reserve bleed air, and as I recall could maintain a 14,000 foot cabin altitude up in the 40's with a cabin window blown out, directing all the bleed air to the cabin.

There's no chance that is correct.

A hole the size of a window with 6 PSI drop across it (14,000 ft to FL400) would require abut 25,000 SCFM of air, or about one ton of air per minute. Just no way the engine can deliver that much air, maybe not even out the tailpipe.

Mike C.

We had the door lip seal on our Lear 31 (731) squirt out a few times when they first replaced it. Just that little seal popping out was enough to kill the pressurization.

Having some empty plastic shopping bags in the drawer by the door is now SOP. Just toss it near the door and it does its work like magic.

If you don't get it in time and kick off the Emergency Pressurization it can become disruptive to the days adventure.

TJ
_________________
Tom Johnson-Az/Wy
AssuredPartners Aerospace Insurance
Tj.Johnson@AssuredPartners.com
C: 602-628-2701


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2022, 12:26 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 20395
Post Likes: +25581
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Having some empty plastic shopping bags in the drawer by the door is now SOP. Just toss it near the door and it does its work like magic.

Video or it didn't happen!

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2022, 13:24 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/22/08
Posts: 3090
Post Likes: +1054
Company: USAF Propulsion Laboratory
Location: Dayton, OH
Aircraft: PA24, AEST 680, 421
Username Protected wrote:
We had the door lip seal on our Lear 31 (731) squirt out a few times when they first replaced it. Just that little seal popping out was enough to kill the pressurization.

Having some empty plastic shopping bags in the drawer by the door is now SOP. Just toss it near the door and it does its work like magic.

If you don't get it in time and kick off the Emergency Pressurization it can become disruptive to the days adventure.

TJ

Had a door seal fail on the Aerostar. While a much smaller air source, not even close to pressurize the cabin. The door gap may be small, but the total area is larger than one might think.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2022, 13:31 
Online


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 03/23/08
Posts: 7357
Post Likes: +4088
Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx.
Location: KDVT, 46U
Aircraft: IAR823, LrJet, 240Z
Username Protected wrote:
Having some empty plastic shopping bags in the drawer by the door is now SOP. Just toss it near the door and it does its work like magic.

Video or it didn't happen!

Mike C.

Don't think I got one :( But it sealed up the gap good enough to Press-on!

Thankfully they fixed that annoying seal issue which I TOLD them what it was right from the start. The seal didn't have the holes punched on the inside (they said I was dumb...).

Come to find out, guess what- TJ was right, you got to punch the holes on the inside of the seal after install. :)
Lear door sucks compared to the Mighty Mu2 door (best door ever?)
T
_________________
Tom Johnson-Az/Wy
AssuredPartners Aerospace Insurance
Tj.Johnson@AssuredPartners.com
C: 602-628-2701


Top

 Post subject: Re: Jets with normal cruise of 0.7 mach or better?
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2022, 13:38 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/02/09
Posts: 177
Post Likes: +154
Aircraft: M20E
TJ in my mind you are always right :)

_________________
Ipc, BFR.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 151 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next



B-Kool (Top/Bottom Banner)

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2025

.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.puremedical-85x200.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.Elite-85x50.png.
.performanceaero-85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.ocraviation-85x50.png.
.aerox_85x100.png.
.b-kool-85x50.png.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.rnp.85x50.png.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.dbm.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.holymicro-85x50.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2021-11-22.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.mcfarlane-85x50.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.KingAirMaint85_50.png.