Hey Mike, can you elaborate on this? Thought you were a big fan of the mu2 based on your past experiences.

I have one trip in a 441 and it was very smooth and not very noisy, less than my MU2 was. I was up front, and I had a pilot passenger on the trip who commented on the quiet in the back.

Odd that we had such different experiences. This may relate to how well balanced the props are, what the cabin insulation was like, etc.

The Commander with the slower turning props should be quieter, but the props won't be quite as efficient at cruise speeds, much like the 4 blade versus 3 blade MU2s.


Yes, either one is a better choice than a PT6 airplane, IMO.

Mike C.

I always wanted a 441. When upgrading 15 years ago, I could not afford one.

I bought an MU2 instead. The MU2 was in the throes of possible grounding, new rules, etc, so I could get a nice one for not much money. I had similar concerns as everyone new to the type does, but the overall experience was fantastic and I came to love a lot of MU2 features that weren't necessarily obvious at first. The big one being, of course, just being reliable. But other things like well built cabin door, easy ingress for elderly passengers, robust construction, great turbulence handling, all adding to the benefits.

But even so, I'd go for a nice 441 over a return to an MU2. I'd want the range of the extra fuel. Simpler and easier to service fuel system. The 441 is also faster by a smidge. The 441 has the best designed cowling of any airplane I've ever seen, so clean. Also, I can get Garmin EFIS, GTN *and* GFC 600 autopilot for it. MU2 still lacks a modern autopilot option, sigh. I don't think the Garmin AP is certified for the Commanders (maybe they have the STEC 3100?).

Maybe all this is "grass is greener" thinking about the 441 and I would be better to go back to an MU2, but it is my thinking right now. My main concern is that the 441 is a lot lighter than an MU2 and has a reputation for being maybe a bit "flimsy". It is about 1000 lbs lighter than an MU2 and bigger, so it has to be somewhat less "thick". This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there may be weak spots to be watched.

The 441 does have a fail safe spar, any one primary member can be cut and the wing will still hold rated load. Not sure the MU2 or the Commander has that.

Mike C.

I wonder why this is. P&W is so dominant in the TP space. It would be great to see Honeywell make a run for that market. The fact that the Garrett is less desireable for a SETP is a definite downside considering the strength and growth of that market.

The reasons have more to do with PWC and Honeywell than with engineering specs.

Also, when fuel was cheap, the PT6 fuel burn did not seem like a big issue.

The high ground idle of TPE331 wasn't liked by some.

The TPE331 engine is a lot easier to own than a PT6. Lower fuel burn, longer service intervals, no oil consumption, etc. The TPE331 saves enough fuel to pay for its HSI and OH versus the PT6, especially these days.

Mike C.

Oh I’m sure you’ll get it. With 200 hours probably have not had a chance to practice much - seems like there’s not as much reason to fly on nasty days as there used to be. Don’t be afraid to leave your heels on the floor and give it a big boot of rudder just like a 172.

Yes, yes it is.

As u say as expected.

Andrew

The 441 has through the panel yokes, the Commander has floor control column that comes up between your knees. Some don't like the control column being in the way and prefer the through the panel yoke.

This is why some folks really prefer the Mustang over a CJ, not having the control column. The Mustang is one of the very few jets with through the panel yokes.

I worried about this myself never having flown a control column airplane, and obviously my Citation V has one. It turns out not to be a big issue for me. There is a little bit of an annoyance getting in and out of the seat (particularly for non pilot passengers in the right seat), but once seated, the column has caused me no issues. I find the Citation cockpit to be reasonably comfortable.

On the plus side, control column means less complexity on and behind the panel. No flight control cables to get in the way of avionics and more freedom to locate things on the panel. There is probably a bit more finesse in pitch control as well. It is also easier for electrical things to be on the yoke since that wiring comes up from the floor and not through a coiled wire inside or under the yoke tube in through the panel setups.

One change I did, however, was to dramatically shorten the center console. The original install had FMS head, autopilot knobs, etc. We took all that out and shortened the center console. Makes getting in and out SO much better. I see that Commanders sometimes have longer center consoles, so that's something to consider.

This would annoy me (and any right seat passenger) a lot and lead to potentially busted knobs and buttons from feet hitting stuff:

This, my airplane, is much better, needing no step over at all:

Cockpit ergonomics matter a lot for a plane with 6 hours range.

Mike C.

I always wanted a 441. When upgrading 15 years ago, I could not afford one.

I bought an MU2 instead. The MU2 was in the throes of possible grounding, new rules, etc, so I could get a nice one for not much money. I had similar concerns as everyone new to the type does, but the overall experience was fantastic and I came to love a lot of MU2 features that weren't necessarily obvious at first. The big one being, of course, just being reliable. But other things like well built cabin door, easy ingress for elderly passengers, robust construction, great turbulence handling, all adding to the benefits.

But even so, I'd go for a nice 441 over a return to an MU2. I'd want the range of the extra fuel. Simpler and easier to service fuel system. The 441 is also faster by a smidge. The 441 has the best designed cowling of any airplane I've ever seen, so clean. Also, I can get Garmin EFIS, GTN *and* GFC 600 autopilot for it. MU2 still lacks a modern autopilot option, sigh. I don't think the Garmin AP is certified for the Commanders (maybe they have the STEC 3100?).

Maybe all this is "grass is greener" thinking about the 441 and I would be better to go back to an MU2, but it is my thinking right now. My main concern is that the 441 is a lot lighter than an MU2 and has a reputation for being maybe a bit "flimsy". It is about 1000 lbs lighter than an MU2 and bigger, so it has to be somewhat less "thick". This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there may be weak spots to be watched.

The 441 does have a fail safe spar, any one primary member can be cut and the wing will still hold rated load. Not sure the MU2 or the Commander has that.

Mike C.

What do you guys figure is the rough cost per hour is for a 441 or Commander?

The Commanders can be run - if you're extremely vigilant and on top of maintenance - for as low as about $650/hr at the very lowest end. But if you're a "normal" user, they're realistically a $900-1000/hr planes. Rough breakdown for 100hrs/year at the lowest end:

Engine reserve: $111/hr
Hotsection reserve: $8/hr
Gear overhaul: $30/hr
Maintenance: $200/hr
Fuel: $320/hr

Total: $669/hr

Well Jay, my take on today’s message, for example, is that, in general, it’s somehow easier to get into the cockpit of a Citation or other plane than a Commander. The truth is that if it’s not already configured, and especially with Garmin panels, it’s easy to make a Commander something you can walk into without leaping a quadrant like most Citations, etc. The Commander is about the only plane I can think of that has headroom for 6’8” and the ability to slide the seat so far back you can’t touch the rudder pedals. I’m not saying they are all so configured, but hey, there’s a pic of a rare G950 panel with the long quadrant. Anyway, I wish I had time for it. Everyone’s got their opinions which is great and makes for fun reading.

The adoption of EFIS and GPS navigators has resulted in a great many Citations removing the extended console, like my case, and having no console to jump over. That changes the cockpit ergonomics tremendously.

441s never came with an extended console from what I understand.

When I look at the 8 Cessna 441s listed for sale on controller, every single one has been Garminized with EFIS and GTN. All of them. Makes for a very nice panel. Example pic:

No column, no console, really can't get any easier to get in and out of the cockpit than that. The Garmin EFIS + GTN makes for a very clean and very workable panel. Not cheap, but good.


You can look at the pics for those that are for sale and see others with sizable consoles sticking out. Example:

That's something you'd have to step over and deal with the column. If you want a passenger to sit right seat, will be a bit of a chore to get in. A panel overhaul can probably removal all that stuff in the console and remove it, and this one is steam as it is, so possible to improve this at some expense.

Mike C.

Those are non fixed costs.

Insurance, hangar, taxes, training need to be added to the mix.

Hangar, in particular, can be a problem for Commanders. The basic T hangar is too small and that often bumps one up to the rectangular corporate style hangars with commensurate jump in costs and possible lack of availability.

The 441 will fit in more hangars than the Commander, though not all of them, of course.

After owning a high wing airplane with 6 filler ports (MU2), and now having a low wing airplane with just two (Citation V), I can say having just two you can reach without a ladder is very nice. The Commander fueling process is an improvement over the MU2, but the 441 will be the easier one for sure. I ended up doing a lot more self serve fueling of my Citation due to lower fuel prices and it being relatively easy. A 441 with 475 gallons would benefit from this as well.

Mike C.

[quote="Jim Hausch]

The fact that the Garrett is less desireable for a SETP is a definite downside considering the strength and growth of that market.[/quote]

What is wrong with a Garrett in a single? Not factory but these guys did it.

https://www.texasturbines.com/supervan-900/