BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 20:35

Can you do a breakdown of the costs of the Citation Mustang?

Fixed:
Insurance
Hangar
Annual inspection

Hourly:
Fuel (100gph?)
Engine program
Maintenance

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 20:40

Username Protected wrote:

Also, there’s no reason that a cylinder can’t be kept equally cool in either variant of the same basic motor (one just happens to have gear reduction, to spin the engine faster, which produces the additional 40 hp over a direct drive (no gear reduction) 335 hp RAM VI or VII).

The cylinders in the GTSIO-520 421 run considerably cooler than those in the TSIO-520 414.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 21:42

I just figured mine for the last 4 years and “all-in” it was $750/hr. It would have been lower, but I knew I’d be doing a “wings off/gear off 7500 maintenance event” just 700hr after purchase, and I also had a windshield crack which was pricey…but again, that average includes those matters. With my prior two pressurized twin piston aircraft, I had turbos fail, wastegates fail, blocks crack, starters fail, ignition systems fail, oil coolers freeze overheated oil requiring in-flight shut-down, cylinders depart the engine, and all manner of other electrical system issues. The hourly costs were probably quite similar, but the value of simply putting fuel in the twin turbine and flying it between inspections with virtually no issues…priceless.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 22:20

Username Protected wrote:

Cylinders can be hotter, sure, but 340F versus 380F on the hottest cylinder isn’t chronic.

Believe me, I’ve battled the hot cylinder blues on the 414! After loads of time f-ing with fuel flows and air baffling, we have resorted to “high boost” to keep an errant cylinder in line. It normally only happens in the high teens and above in the Flight Levels, only during climb.

I always have to remember to turn off high boost prior to pulling back power at level off. It’s almost always just the left engine.

We rarely see 340° CHT's below FL240.
What do you see on the 414 in the mid 20's Tony?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 00:33

Username Protected wrote:

Can you do a breakdown of the costs of the Citation Mustang?

Fixed:
Insurance
Hangar
Annual inspection

Hourly:
Fuel (100gph?)
Engine program
Maintenance

Fixed:
Subscriptions $5k
Recurrent $10k
Insurance $20k
Hangar $5k
Maintenance $20k

Hourly:
Fuel 90gph average. $450/hr
Engine program $367/hr
ProParts $175/hr
FBO parking/fees $50/hr

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 09:04

Quote:

We rarely see 340° CHT's below FL240.
What do you see on the 414 in the mid 20's Tony?

Here ya go… FL230 last month, over the Grand Canyon. Cylinder number 3 on both engines is always the hottest.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 09:22

Username Protected wrote:

Cylinders can be hotter, sure, but 340F versus 380F on the hottest cylinder isn’t chronic.

The 421C that I managed ran about 100 degrees cooler than the 414 that I own. I'd have to dig out the actual JPI data, but the 421C is significantly cooler than the 414 and one of the reasons that (as mentioned above) that the cylinders will typically make TBO without removal.

I had every intention of buying a 421C when I sold my Aerostar. The only reason I bought the 414 is I got a good deal from a customer on a low time airplane that my IA and I have maintained since 1992. It still cost me an engine shortly after purchase, but that could have happened with any airplane...

I like flying my 414, but loved the 421C.

If capital cost isn't a factor, the 441 is the best. Take that factor out, and the ownership cost is similar to a 414/421 for a equally maintained airplane.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 11:01

Seems like the OP says operating costs are more important than acquisition costs. With that in mind, seems like a PC12 is pretty compelling.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 11:31

Username Protected wrote:

Seems like the OP says operating costs are more important than acquisition costs. With that in mind, seems like a PC12 is pretty compelling.

Good luck finding one. Right now they are $1M-$3M over market.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 11:45

Username Protected wrote:

Quote:

We rarely see 340° CHT's below FL240.
What do you see on the 414 in the mid 20's Tony?

Here ya go… FL230 last month, over the Grand Canyon. Cylinder number 3 on both engines is always the hottest.

A 70+ degree spread on the left and a 60+ degree spread on the right is not normal for a 414 or a 340.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 12:16

I was over the Grand Canyon last month also in the MU-2F at FL250. 60kts faster on 58gph total. No cylinders to worry about, no magnetos either. Engines just spin at 96%rpm and EGT at 500. Oil changes, every 900 hours. TBO 5400 hours with hot sections at 1800 hours. No magnetos to time, no exhaust system to inspect, no turbochargers to fail, no cylinders or cases to crack...much simpler and more reliable powerplants. I had this debate with myself on pressurized twins, the MU-2F won and for good reason. It is a much more capable aircraft than any pressurized piston twin, period. The cost per mile for a 421 and my plane were close when I ran the numbers looking at a purchase. The hassle factor is not close, you just fly the plane between 100hr inspections. My plane has spent zero time in the shop for engine or airframe issues since Sept 2020 and 210 hrs flying time. It has covered more ground in that time than a 421 would as well.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 15:12

Username Protected wrote:

I was over the Grand Canyon last month also in the MU-2F at FL250. 60kts faster on 58gph total. No cylinders to worry about, no magnetos either. Engines just spin at 96%rpm and EGT at 500. Oil changes, every 900 hours. TBO 5400 hours

That sounds awesome! That’s double the fuel burn, and maybe double the acquisition cost?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 15:14

Username Protected wrote:

I was over the Grand Canyon last month also in the MU-2F at FL250. 60kts faster on 58gph total. No cylinders to worry about, no magnetos either. Engines just spin at 96%rpm and EGT at 500. Oil changes, every 900 hours. TBO 5400 hours

That sounds awesome! That’s double the fuel burn, and maybe double the acquisition cost?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 16:06

Plus Jet-A is cheaper than 100LL. 36% cheaper right now at my airport.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2022, 16:26

Username Protected wrote:

I was over the Grand Canyon last month also in the MU-2F at FL250. 60kts faster on 58gph total. No cylinders to worry about, no magnetos either. Engines just spin at 96%rpm and EGT at 500. Oil changes, every 900 hours. TBO 5400 hours

That sounds awesome! That’s double the fuel burn, and maybe double the acquisition cost?

Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm