BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 13:30

Username Protected wrote:

...1) Speed - not as big of an advantage as you might think. Any of the 414/421 aircraft can cruise at 200 KTAS, while a Citation Mustang can go 300-350 KTAS. For a 250 mile trip, this might only be minutes. You need longer trips to realize the speed into meaningful time.

2) Safety - twin turbines win big here… they rarely tank an engine, and when they do, you have all the power in the world to get you safely home. The piston aircraft 414/421 will need a trained pilot on his A game in the event of an engine failure at V1, or in mountainous terrain airports. Also, it was mentioned about climbing above weather, or climbing more quickly through the weather… all true...

I agree with #1.

#2 is not borne out by data. I think a turbine is, generally, an order of magnitude more reliable than a piston.

Single turbines vs Twin turbines (except for jets) show a difference that is more reflective of the operator culture than the hardware.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 14:20

Username Protected wrote:

Two identical pistons isn’t a bad idea

I can't imagine insuring, hangaring, and maintaining two airplanes, because I couldn't afford the right "one"

That's some backwards logic

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 15:09

Username Protected wrote:

I can't imagine insuring, hangaring, and maintaining two airplanes, because I couldn't afford the right "one"

That's some backwards logic

Two airplanes won't give you a the same dispatch rate as a turbine powered airpalne since the one you're using at the time can fail mid-trip leaving you just as stranded as if you only had one airplane.

Too bad no underwriter offers a policy that only covers one of the two in-flight at a time for a much lower premium that you'd pay for two full coverage policies.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 15:13

Username Protected wrote:

call a pilot to bring the other aircraft to pick you up. Don’t forget the mechanic, too, so the AOG bird gets some love.

Two overnight pilots, an overnight mechanic, a mobile toolset...now we're DEFINTELY cheaper than a King Air! :lol:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 15:22

Username Protected wrote:

call a pilot to bring the other aircraft to pick you up. Don’t forget the mechanic, too, so the AOG bird gets some love.

Two overnight pilots, an overnight mechanic, a mobile toolset...now we're DEFINTELY cheaper than a King Air! :lol:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 15:51

Username Protected wrote:

Even King Airs break down, and need all that! Oh, wait, you don’t have two King Airs, because they are ridiculously expensive, so it time to an EXPENSIVE charter to get the crew out, and EXPENSIVE charter to get home.

I'm on my second year of ownership, and I haven't had one AOG moment, there are many others on here who have many more years of ownership that can probably attest to their AOG frequencies

I'm guessing it will be much smaller than the 421/414 crowd

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 16:35

Username Protected wrote:

Even King Airs break down, and need all that! Oh, wait, you don’t have two King Airs, because they are ridiculously expensive, so it time to an EXPENSIVE charter to get the crew out, and EXPENSIVE charter to get home.

I'm on my second year of ownership, and I haven't had one AOG moment, there are many others on here who have many more years of ownership that can probably attest to their AOG frequencies

I'm guessing it will be much smaller than the 421/414 crowd

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 17:16

Username Protected wrote:

For the 421, the motors are fine, but far more expensive to work on

This just isn't true and I wish people would stop saying it.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 17:29

Username Protected wrote:

For the 421, the motors are fine, but far more expensive to work on

This just isn't true and I wish people would stop saying it.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 18:50

Username Protected wrote:

This just isn't true and I wish people would stop saying it.

Ok, why don’t you ring up a few shops, and get us quotes on the following rebuilds:

421 - GTSI-520 engine

414 - TSIO-520-NB

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 19:00

Come on, they all take the same basic time and expense to change spark plugs, or change the oil, or time the magnetos.

I’m talking about MAINTENANCE COST. That includes everything, including a new or overhauled engine.

Obviously, you don’t seem so keen to discuss this aspect, since you know the answer.

GTSIO-520 $100,000

TSIO-520-NB $60,000

Also, there’s no reason that a cylinder can’t be kept equally cool in either variant of the same basic motor (one just happens to have gear reduction, to spin the engine faster, which produces the additional 40 hp over a direct drive (no gear reduction) 335 hp RAM VI or VII).

While we’re pontificating all this wonderful-ness, it only just dawned on me that a 4450 pound C414 RAM VI or VII has the same payload as a 5350 pound C421… both about 2275 pounds.

Hmmm… people sure pay a lot more for those small changes!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 19:08

Username Protected wrote:

Come on, they all take the same basic time and expense to change spark plugs, or change the oil, or time the magnetos.

I’m talking about MAINTENANCE COST. That includes everything, including a new or overhauled engine.

Obviously, you don’t seem so keen to discuss this aspect, since you know the answer.

GTSIO-520 $100,000

TSIO-520-NB $60,000

I'm well aware of the cost to overhaul a GTSIO-520 and don't mind discussing it. I own one. Of course it's more expensive but more like $25-30k more. I do think they will make it to TBO more often than a TSIO. And the operating delta between the two at $30k is like $20 more an hour. :peace:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 19:10

Username Protected wrote:

Come on, they all take the same basic time and expense to change spark plugs, or change the oil, or time the magnetos.

I’m talking about MAINTENANCE COST. That includes everything, including a new or overhauled engine.

Obviously, you don’t seem so keen to discuss this aspect, since you know the answer.

GTSIO-520 $100,000

TSIO-520-NB $60,000

I'm well aware of the cost to overhaul a GTSIO-520 and don't mind discussing it. I own one. Of course it's more expensive but more like $25-30k more. I do think they will make it to TBO more often than a TSIO. And the operating delta between the two at $30k is like $20 more an hour. :peace:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 19:14

Username Protected wrote:

Also, there’s no reason that a cylinder can’t be kept equally cool in either variant of the same basic motor (one just happens to have gear reduction, to spin the engine faster, which produces the additional 40 hp over a direct drive (no gear reduction) 335 hp RAM VI or VII).

The cylinders in the GTSIO-520 421 run considerably cooler than those in the TSIO-520 414.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2022, 19:37

Username Protected wrote:

So, since money is not addressed, and for a fleet of one plane that meets the above list, I’d recommend one of the NEWER small jets. I’d probably stick with a Cessna Citation Mustang. I estimate about $2000 per hour to operate, plus fixed costs. There are lots of Cessna Service Centers, and the Mustang is easy to fly.

I've been spending $1,000/hr + fixed costs to run the Mustang the past two years. It will be more this year with the higher fuel prices, but still <$1,200.

Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm