10 Jul 2025, 16:54 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 16:14 |
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Joined: 06/17/16 Posts: 511 Post Likes: +562 Location: Santa Monica, CA
Aircraft: 1981 Baron B55
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I do think that it is incumbent on Pilatus to do as Gulfstream did and come up with and publish a method of operating their aircraft in accordance with noise abatement regulations.
If instead, their attitude toward their customers is "Tough luck, you are on your own" that would be of interest to potential buyers.
If no solution is found and promulgated, their plane will be hours limited at quite a few airports in both the U.S. and Europe, and banned from some airports altogether.
I don't like these noise rules any better than anyone else on this forum, but noise restrictions are a part of modern flying, particularly modern business jet flying.
_________________ ATP ASMEL G-IV CE-500 CFI/CFII/MEI Gold Seal AGI/IGI
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 16:37 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8160 Post Likes: +10519 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Several PC-24's have busted the noise limit at SMO. Probably poor technique, but it seems to be a problem Is it just random airplanes? Planesense? I don't show any being based there.
_________________ Winners don’t whine.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 17:15 |
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Joined: 12/31/17 Posts: 1043 Post Likes: +614 Location: KADS
Aircraft: C560
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Username Protected wrote: Several PC-24's have busted the noise limit at SMO. Probably poor technique, but it seems to be a problem I agree it is probably technique. In the 90's I flew a GE powered Falcon 20 into SMO a few times a year. First departure we rang the bells. Second trip we talked to some locals and they showed us where the noise sensors were, off the runway departure end a ways. After that we would takeoff and climb best we could until the end of the runway and pull the power back to just maintain altitude. I did that until past the sensors and never set them off again. I was told several Challengers set off the noise sensors when they left the APU running on departure.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 18:17 |
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Joined: 03/28/17 Posts: 8456 Post Likes: +10686 Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: Noise is not merely a function of engines. Drag increases measured noise by quite a bit. It may be that the climb angle is too high or it may be some characteristic of the airframe.
For example, Cessna 310's never bust the noise at SMO, unless you leave the gear down too long, or climb at a very high angle.
A 310 with 470's will not normally bust at SMO, but a B55 with the same 470's often will because of the recommended climb speed and hence steeper angle. Noise engineering studies show that altitude dissipates noise better than distance does, and therefore a steeper climb dissipates noise better than a flatter climb. For noise on approach, the flap setting can make a great deal of difference in the approach power setting, and therefore the noise. Some jets only make it under the noise limit by reducing landing flaps. So in the case of PC-24 it could be a matter of not using a better noise abatement procedure for takeoff and landing. Maybe somebody could post the PC-24 noise abatement procedure from the manual for us to see. Edit: A typical turbojet noise abatement takeoff is with reduced power if able, climb at V2+10 with takeoff flap setting to 1500 feet, then pitch over, accelerate and clean up the flaps climbing at climb power. One of the approaches to Tokyo is from over the water, and there was a note on the approach plate requiring that the gear be extended while over the water. We couldn't figure out why that was until we heard the story. We couldn't see how it had anything to do with noise abatement, and it didn't. Jets often come in from Anchorage and when they operate in the winter there is snow on the ground. A jet coming in from Anchorage extended it's gear as normal, but over the populated land area, and a chunk of ice fell out of the gear well and killed somebody on the ground. Then they put the requirement on the approach plate.
Last edited on 02 Sep 2021, 18:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 18:51 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11068 Post Likes: +7095 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Chip, lav sucks, too complicated to get to it. Externally serviced is idiotic IMHO, cause the engineers have not used a shitter on an airplane.  My kids would kill it!!! PC24 needs better autopilot control on one engine. It’s all coming though. Their weekly improvement is remarkable. What amazes me about that bird is the take off and landing….. damn
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 19:20 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8160 Post Likes: +10519 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Chip, lav sucks, too complicated to get to it. Externally serviced is idiotic IMHO, cause the engineers have not used a shitter on an airplane.  My kids would kill it!!! PC24 needs better autopilot control on one engine. It’s all coming though. Their weekly improvement is remarkable. What amazes me about that bird is the take off and landing….. damn I liked the lav, thought it was brilliant, it wasn't too complicated... but yes, probably not suitable for kids. I'll post a video so everyone can see it.
_________________ Winners don’t whine.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 21:37 |
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Joined: 06/17/16 Posts: 511 Post Likes: +562 Location: Santa Monica, CA
Aircraft: 1981 Baron B55
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Username Protected wrote: Several PC-24's have busted the noise limit at SMO. Probably poor technique, but it seems to be a problem Is it just random airplanes? Planesense? I don't show any being based there.
There are none based at SMO but I believe that 3 out of 4 that have been here have busted on departure.
They may soon be banned as happened to the Piaggio Avanti.
If I was Pilatus, I would take steps to prevent that.
_________________ ATP ASMEL G-IV CE-500 CFI/CFII/MEI Gold Seal AGI/IGI
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 22:07 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8160 Post Likes: +10519 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: That seems like a lot of work to use the bathroom plus you don’t get an extra belted seat! Yep, no belted lav... no bench... just eight seats for big people. or six plus two.. which is how I expect my clients to lean.
_________________ Winners don’t whine.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 02 Sep 2021, 23:58 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20445 Post Likes: +25729 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: We've flown it in and out of the CEO's ranch w/ a gravel strip multiple times with nary an issue. Is that covered in your insurance policy? I think it is common to see insurance limits that specify hard surface runways only for the more expensive planes like this. Might want to check to make sure since it could be very expensive if something happens and you aren't covered. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 03 Sep 2021, 00:33 |
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Joined: 07/19/18 Posts: 368 Post Likes: +157
Aircraft: On the hunt...
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Chip, I noticed in another thread (I think) where you said that the real world transaction pricing of the PC-24 was significantly more than the 300E. If I'm remembering that correctly could you tell us more about that difference? I had seen spreads of as much as $2M but, in this market, I no longer trust my ears!
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 Posted: 03 Sep 2021, 07:12 |
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Joined: 06/09/09 Posts: 4438 Post Likes: +3304
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
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Username Protected wrote: That seems like a lot of work to use the bathroom plus you don’t get an extra belted seat! Yep, no belted lav... no bench... just eight seats for big people. or six plus two.. which is how I expect my clients to lean.
The cabin seats may be for big people but the lav doesn’t appear to be designed to the same size person. Not very handy for elderly or thirsty group of guys.
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