*When* they fix the landing gear limits and retrofit the new system thereby allowing gross weight increases, that's going to be a huge win for Mooney owners.

You mean, like a TBM?

You mean, like a TBM?

Ovation was not too hard to change oil on. Did it a lot at 25-50 hour intervals when I was flying it 250+ hours. Watched the first one done on Acclaim and boy is it tight around the filter. Harder still to get typed in safety wiring it properly. young man performing this was a Houdini.

Just curious about this thought because I am really trying to understand what's going on here... the only planes I ever see parked on the ramp are the brand-new Cirrus and the really ragged-out older planes or rental operations. I mean, if the Cirrus owner is used to luxury enough that they want a plane every two years, why wouldn't they also store their airplanes where all the other expensive planes are? Dont they look out on the ramp "why is my plane sitting next to this rusty Cessna with a flat tire? while those nice shiny other planes are in hangars?" I mean wouldn't basic observational skills influence the decision? And if they are price insensitive, why not pay hangar rent just for a "better" place to put their airplane? And if comfort is a concern, why would they want to pre-flight out in the rain, snow, hot sun, etc.? (Our local Cirrus rental outfit just ran an ad where the pilot in the ad was pre-flighting a plane tied on a ramp in rainy weather, I felt like that was not the best way to sell the high-priced "concierge" rental experience...). People who own high end sports cars -- even if they constantly replace them -- put them in a garage. (Also, I am not sure if this is a national phenomena, in Houston it seems like Cirrus were hangared... but here in DC, not so much...)

As for hours flown, its hard to tell... lots more Cirrus in air charter, fractional ownership arrangements, and rental operation lease-backs than Mooneys, because of clever financing/tax planning arrangements, so its not really comparable. I am actually curious as how many Cirrus are flown solely by their owner-pilot. Lots of Mooneys collecting dust with an aging ownership population though but some Mooney owners travel a ton.

Becca - I’ve been told that the shiny Cirri on the ramp are owned by well-heeled low-time individuals who lease them back to a management operation who then provide pro pilots to fly the owners around. They also are responsible for complying with all sorts of Cirrus-specific rules regarding who can work on the planes, what color they can be painted, etc etc.

I’ve never seen a similar Mooney sale-leaseback-manage/maintain-fly concierge operation - probably because the average skinflint Mooney owner would balk at paying a pro pilot to fly their plane to another airport for an oil change, etc.

Best

Tim
Former Mooney Skinflint...

You're thinking like an airplane owner. I suspect they're thinking like a car owner. If you kept a car for 50 years, you'd probably not let it sit outside. Just my conjecture.

I don't understand what you're circling around for, after you made the following masterful insight:
"But I think that's an indication of lack of connection of Cirrus owners with the rest of the GA community."
Is there anything else to discuss?

It takes an absurd effort to worm into the "GA community", and it takes years upon years. You humble-bragged previously that it only took you two years to find a hangar in a major metropolitan area. But you didn't mention what else it took you. A couple of waiting lists? Ha! As if a Cirrus owner is capable of that.

The only reason I managed to get a toehold at my current location is because I attended a meeting of so-called 'IFR Club", and I only got a wind of it because someone mirrored it at meetup.com. I know locals who are not as lucky and are stuck on tiedowns for years. They are solid customers for outfits like Bruce's Custom Covers.

South Florida

Hangar 800-1000
Tie Down 200-250

Monthly savings = 600-750 approximately

In two years you have 15k towards a repaint.........

Paint cared for outside lasts way longer than three years.

Always wondered why no one has invented a full cover that goes easily over an airplane yet.

I don't understand what you're circling around for, after you made the following masterful insight:
"But I think that's an indication of lack of connection of Cirrus owners with the rest of the GA community."
Is there anything else to discuss?

It takes an absurd effort to worm into the "GA community", and it takes years upon years. You humble-bragged previously that it only took you two years to find a hangar in a major metropolitan area. But you didn't mention what else it took you. A couple of waiting lists? Ha! As if a Cirrus owner is capable of that.

The only reason I managed to get a toehold at my current location is because I attended a meeting of so-called 'IFR Club", and I only got a wind of it because someone mirrored it at meetup.com. I know locals who are not as lucky and are stuck on tiedowns for years. They are solid customers for outfits like Bruce's Custom Covers.

At those prices, even I would rethink a hangar! But where would I keep the tools?

(Learned to fly at BCT in the 90s; got treated terribly when I came back to visit family by BCT in the 2010s; really not planning on ever residing in South Florida again much to husband's chagrin.

Sorry, can’t resist posting this from a recent Facebook post....

I wonder if there is room in the market for a 201/205 type offering? Not much in the sub-500k market... well, unless you consider the Pipistrel Panthera.

Is the 201 a 4000-hr airframe?

To answer my own question, I found a data point on one of the Mooney forums from someone who used to run the engineering group at that time.

At a run rate of 40 M20s a month, it took 1350 hours which included all S,G,&A. That included engine, avionics, interior, etc.

There was another data point about an Acclaim taking less than 5000 hours (4000+) and 5000 hours was the point where it became a money loosing situation for that particular plane.

I don't know what the point of break-even from covering fixed and variable in the 201 days.

Assume there is a market for 10 airplanes/month.

Taking that earlier data point, equates to roughly 65 non-production staff and 251 production staff at a loaded rate of $100/hr.

Could you build 10 airplanes/month with 15 management types and 63 production staff? That's everything above multiplied by 25% and labor still at 1350 hours.

Say they re-introduced the 205. It's FAA-approved and all of the tooling is still in place. (I assume the tooling is still in place.) Put the approved Lycoming IO-390-A3A6 in it plus a full Dynon panel with autopilot. Decent paint and interior.

Labor $135K
Engine/Prop/Avionics/everything else $150K
Product Liability $70K

That brings us to $355K cost. Throw in 20% margin and your right about $425K.

Is there a market for a $425K 205? (170 Knots, 1030 lb useful, 646 lbs full fuel, 700nm range)

(BTW. I checked on the Pipistral. With the Euro conversion, it's around $750K.)

All I can say, as a former Cirrus owner (now Piper M600 owner), is that I took damn good care of my airplane. Always hangared it (with my local Cirrus service center in their group hangar), did paint correction/ceramic coating (which was fantastic actually). It would simply never have occurred to me to leave it in a tied down on a regular basis.

Of course, there are some areas/airports where there is a long wait for an individual hangar, but even in those places there are usually group hangar and concierge options available. I don't understand people who don't take advantage of that either ... no matter what they fly.

I think I've always been "connected" to the GA community online and locally here in Houston ... I do think there is a tendency to paint Cirrus owners in a certain way, which of course like any such major generalization, reflects some people accurately but not others (or even most of them). I met numerous Cirrus owners through COPA and CPPPs (and other events) who took great care of their planes, were good pilots who were focused and committed to training and safety, and loved being part of the broader GA community. And we should be glad to have those pilots in the community, just like any other pilot.

Just my two cents. Don't get me started on all those short and skinny Mooney pilots who love to shoehorn themselves into tiny tuna fish cans for an extra 20 knots of speed ... *laughing and j/k*. Maybe some folks are jealous of Cirrus pilots who can afford a new, $900k single. I'm jealous of anyone who can FIT in a Mooney!! ha ha