Granted, but you get two things with military training for aviation.

First, the washout rate. 50% never make it past basic flight. Of those that remain, 50% of that number get pushed into tankers and such that, while complex aircraft, are multi-crew planes that will have an experienced aircraft commander while the NooB builds experience. Only 10% or so can hack the training that gets them into a single-seat aircraft.

Second, the environment. That 10% then don't fly by themselves like we do. They fly on precisely-controlled environments with babysat fuel loading, ordinance loading, mission profiles, times, tracks, and they do EVERYTHING their controllers tell them to do, right down to the gnat's a.... Every time.

That kind of structure creates an environment where the only thing they have to worry about is mechanical malfunctions and flying the plane. Everything else is done for them. There's little room for deviation. You're given your flying orders, you discuss until you understand them, then you execute it.

That plus the training is why they can do what they do and it's a small percentage of them that can.

I am unaware of any civilian training set up to wash 90% of the applicants before cutting them loose with a 300 kt airplane by themselves at low time. Just to compare apples to apples.

FWIW.

You never communicated that you are OK with about 500 hours of dual received in the MU-2 while completing those ratings and training. Perhaps that is the disconnect.


Respectfully... No, there is not. That's what we are communicating.

While there certainly is a path to obtain your ratings in the MU-2, from schools like Reece Howell, etc, who will gladly charge you $200 an hour plus the cost of your plane to fly it 4 hours a day doing training for 200 hours or so to get your ratings, to the tune of about $40,000 of training, PLUS the cost of operating the plane, you will then only have a piece of paper saying you have a Multiengine Instrument license.

It is unlikely they would sign you off at that point per 91.17xx until they are satisfied you're not going to kill yourself, and that means that "real world" experience. Probably another 100 hours or more.

You can't bypass it.

You need a lot of time flying with ZERO assistance in hard IMC, congested airspace, at night, much of it with the autopilot not allowed so you can build the skills you will need when the autopilot quits and you're in Boston's airspace in a blowing snowstorm like we were a few nights ago. It was sporty as well as busy and that's with two 20,000 hour pilots up front with lots of glass and automation when ATC is talking as fast as they can, compression vectoring people, dealing with ice, changing runways, etc, and you can't afford to miss a transmission.

In an MU-2 you will be treated like a commercial jet operator due to your speed and capability. You have to perform to that level and it's not as easy as you think. I've watched a lot of pilots try and fail with <500 hours total time and <200 make and model. I'd estimate about 1 in 10 of my F/O's in the Lear or the CRJ with those times from ab-initio schools were up to the task before the end of their first year closing in on 500 make and model.


I think it's your wording.

The way you stated it combined with your clear disdain for the "POS piston twin" came across (I think to many of us) that you don't like what the insurance company is telling you and you think you don't have to do those steps.

It wasn't clear that you believed those steps were LESS than what you should do to be proficient in the airplane.

Thank you for clarifying that you think those steps are insufficient to safely fly the MU-2 by yourself; that does make me feel better that you aren't going to become a statistic and honestly, we just don't want to see someone hurt themselves.


At least the 340a is relatively docile and on par in speed with a Baron in the lower altitude regimes. Probably a good choice for you at this stage of the game if you are intent on bypassing the Instrument rating in a single and smaller, more docile twins.

Again, NO ONE is saying you should be flying circles to nowhere. The insurance is likely trying to tell you the same thing we are, that they expect you to use that time flying the plane places, flight planning cross countries then executing on them, and the experience that comes with it.

Whether you do that in a "POS twin" or a 340 is solely up to you. There are quite a few 340's out there for sale. One very nice example is the one that's been popping up on and off on eBay that was a hail damage salvage write off with very small pings on the upper wing surfaces but signed off and in-annual with a very nice avionics stack, good P&I, Ram VII, etc out in California. I think he wanted $140k for it last time we spoke before I bought Laz.

It would be a good plane at a good price, get some experience (and ratings) then step up and probably sell it close to what you have in it.

edit: For that matter, there are two Dukes on here that are currently flying regularly by people that are regular posters, one of which runs the Duke Flyers forum, that could be had even more inexpensively and, while having a slightly higher fuel burn, are great buys, although would be harder to move when done and ready to move on.

I did not intend to be rude, but rather firm in the safety aspect of what you are proposing. In this instance, I am glad the insurance is guiding you down a safer path. Best of luck to you, sir.

From personal experience of someone who transitioned from 340A to Solitaire 3 years ago, I would suggest 340 is the near ideal training platform for MU2B.

I would suggest the Solitaire is a great AC for most missions. It is however very expensive operating costs. For us the ‘break even’ math was 130 hrs/yr. beyond that, TBM & Epic start to make more financial sense

"Very expensive" is a subjective term. I too went from a 340A to a Marquise and found the operating cost difference per mile travelled to only be 20-30% more. I think you'll find most MU2 owners have the opinion that the cost to operate their MU2 is a bargain, compared to other twin engine turboprops and within 25% cost per mile compared to a cabin class twin like a 421/414/340.

I do agree with you that the 340 is a great stepping stone to MU2 ownership.

"Very expensive" is a subjective term. I too went from a 340A to a Marquise and found the operating cost difference per mile travelled to only be 20-30% more. I think you'll find most MU2 owners have the opinion that the cost to operate their MU2 is a bargain, compared to other twin engine turboprops and within 25% cost per mile compared to a cabin class twin like a 421/414/340.

I do agree with you that the 340 is a great stepping stone to MU2 ownership.

BS on 100LL and Jet A costing the same. Program Jet A is 25-50% cheaper than 100LL. No one is paying retail for a jet A but everyone is paying retail for 100LL. MU-2 doesn’t cost much more to fly than a Baron because it never breaks and the fuel to speed ratio is similar. A TSIO-520 is lucky to make 800 hrs before needing expensive cylinders or turbos.

I know it’s hard to believe but the MU-2 is probably the cheapest to buy and cheapest to operate turbine. I can’t think of a single other airplane that gives so much and asks for so little other than a good pilot .

Which program Jet A can you get 50% cheaper as a 50-100 hour a year individual owner operator?

That would be good information to have because I've never heard of that kind of a small volume 50% discount program before.

A TSIO-520 turbocharger overhaul isn't all that expensive and no, not everyone goes through cylinders every 800 hours.

I'm not saying it's not 25% cheaper, you may be right, but I'd like to see the math on every expenditure I mentioned above compared to a Baron. From what I can tell, insurance is 300% higher, training was nonexistent on my Baron, insurance wanted nothing in terms of training, but MU-2 insurance was nearly $5,000 a year. Hangar on the Baron is $300 a month, MU-2 $650.

Seriously, I'd like to see that math as well as who gives 50% small volume contract Jet-A discounts across the nation, including my home airports.

I guess everyone’s mileage varies but compared to a Duke, P Baron or 421, I truly believe the cost of operating an MU-2 will be cheaper.

C.A.A. is the best fuel program. I average around $3.00 per gallon on the road, less at home.
Insurance same as the baron with lesser per seat limits in the Mits
Hangar (I own) is the same
Mx on the turbine much easier and cheaper.

Plan on a block 70 gph to go 260-270kts true (53-55gph cruise) to haul 1000lbs 1200nm in pressurized comfort for $300k. And you can land on short and soft fields. Badass machine.

I will never own another piston pressurized twin. Too much maintenance and work to keep it happy and safe. The engines on these are a constant pain in the ass no matter how gently you operate them .

I agree on the burn numbers for the MU-2 you listed.

I was actually looking at putting Garretts on this other project Duke I ended up with (Experimental/Exhibition) and found a local MU-2 that could have been a donor plane for my needs and I looked at just bypassing the Duke altogether and getting an MU-2, and looked at the fuel cost for all of those planes on a lengthy spreadsheet (as well as all the other costs).

The Baron (non-turbo/pressurized) is by far the cheapest per-mile cost twin out there, in almost any class, except the Aerostar. Including a MU-2, even a turbine Duke, at even $1 a gallon cheaper Jet A than Avgas.

The longer the stage length, the closer it gets, but it's still pricey.

But my Baron insurance was all of $1,700 a year. The Duke is $3,700 a year. The MU-2 would be $4,500 a year and require a $7,000 initial school and $2,500 a year recurrent. Plus double the hangar rent (which you don't have), etc.

I'm just not sure you make that argument of only 25% more unless you're flying 250+ hours a year and can get that $3.00 a gallon fuel over tens of thousands of gallons to offset the other higher costs.

I'd like to see the spreadsheet breakdown.

That said as little as we use our aircraft, with only 100 SMOH, we'll never hit TBO before I stop flying unless our utilization doubles. 30 years flying 50-60 hours a year. So my concern is with maintenance reserves for turbos and cylinders and other things that pop up during annuals vs overhaul costs, but what's that compared to HSI's?

What happens to the airplane after I stop flying somewhere between 75-80 (or get a small single to putz around in) is someone else's problem.

If you're using Jet-A, you almost always purchase with a contract fuel card. CAA, UVAir, Avfuel, World, Phillips, Shell, etc. For purchases up to 500 gallons, you'll typically save more than $1/gal, sometimes more than $2/gal. It just depends on the FBO. From 500-1,000 gallons, you typically see an additional $0.05 off. Posted retail prices are usually meaningless for Jet-A.

Just comparing fuel costs per mile...

MU2 (short body) 270 Block Speed FF/Hr 65 Fuel Cost $3.5/gal = $0.84 per NM
421 210 Block Speed FF/Hr 36 Fuel Cost $6/gal= $1.02 per NM

Here are Tarver's suggested numbers...

MU2 (short body) 260 Block Speed FF/Hr 70 Fuel Cost $3.0/gal = $0.81 per NM
421 210 Block Speed FF/Hr 36 Fuel Cost $6/gal= $1.02 per NM

Maintenance costs in my experience were very similar to what it cost me to maintain my 340, if not less. Insurance would be more, hangar slightly more, annual training would be more, but not a lot. I don't know what they are charging for the SFAR renewal now, but it used to be $2500-3000.

You can definitely operate an MU2 for a cost per mile comparable to a cabin class twin, in my experience. Even operating less than 100 hrs per year.

I have been to the Mitsubishi PROP seminar several times. Polling many owners I came up with about $100,000 a year for 100 hours. There are a few outliers, Mike C. for one (very cheap hangar rent, owner maintenance, cheap fuel prices, etc.). There is no contract fuel available at my home airport so that means tankering in fuel (extra fuel stop/cycles) or paying higher prices for fuel. The cost of inspection no one seems to mention is the cost to get the airplane to and from the inspection locations, airline cost to and from, rental car, lost time etc. There are not very many places set up to do MU2 maintenance, especially on the west coast, though I believe a shop recently opened in Bakersfield. Most of the pilots who fly around 100 hours a year spend a lot of money on training, as high as $10,000 a year. Between either getting to and from the sim, hotel cost, rental car etc. or cost of time in the airplane ($1,000 an hour) and instructor (plus either flying the instructor to you or flying the plane to the instructor), it adds up. MU2s don't usually break between inspections, but the do need inspections. Don't forget the prop AD. That can be another $5,000 a year if you don't need a blade (plus down time for the inspection). If you have the long body there is another AD inspection requirement that I believe is north of $50,000. I do believe that the MU2 is the best value for a turboprop, but I don't see it being just 25% more than a pressurized twin (for the average owner).

Vince

Vince-

The $1,000 per hour is a number that is commonly used to characterize the average cost of an MU2, but there is a big difference in operating costs between the long body and the short body, mainly fuel. My Marquise averaged 95 GPH and 250 Kts, compared to Tarver's 70 GPH and 260 Kts. Compute that out per NM and my Marquise was $1.14 NM. Thats a 42% difference.

I specifically included short body in my comment and not the long body. You can definitely operate a short body for a cost within 25% of a cabin class twin, based on several short body owners that I know personally.

Nobody is REQUIRED to spend $10,000 a year on training. Simcom is $3-4k. I don't know what Reese is charging these days, but I would suspect it is less than that.

That $3-4K doesn't include airfare (or the cost to fly your MU2 there), hotel, rental car, food etc. That could be another $2,000 (a lot more if you fly your plane there from the west coast). Then there is the cost of an IPC, at $1,000 an hour, can be another $2,000 to $3,000 a year. It's not hard to spend $10K a year just on training.

CAA. $500/yr, works great for low volumes. I did a big trip last month, NJ, Raleigh, Houston, Seattle, Raleigh, NJ. Averaged out to $3.10/g. List would have been over $5/g. Mostly big name FBOs.

Not available for avgas