Until I see actual invoices, I tend to be skeptical of such claims. I'd like them to be true, but these fairly low prices are not consistent with other information I have received and don't seem to jibe with the emphasis apparent in for sale listings of Citations about having recent HSI.


Not really, the fuel savings alone make the Williams viable. And you still have overhaul of the JT15D to contend with. There are a lot of JT15Ds out there now being "TBO extended" because it is expensive to overhaul a JT15D.

I'd love to be convinced the JT15D is more economical than the FJ44. I just can't make it so working the numbers. One factor in that is that FJ44 converted airplanes are faster which lowers airframe hours and that saves money, too.

Mike C.

Is this still the case after you factor in the cost of an engine plan or the cost of an FJ44 overhaul done out of plan? Or how close are the numbers?

Hale has done 5 hot sections for us in the last 3 or so years. They have been right in line with the prices mentioned above or less. Two engines were -1A’s and three were -4s. All of the engines already had O/C blades. I don’t think you can save enough time or fuel to justify the differences in costs between Pratts and Williams , but if you want a more efficient, better performing aircraft then go with the newer technology at a higher price.

Steve

I think whatever economist or cost analysts that Williams have, got here already. They tightly dialed in the flight value/fuel and ratcheted the maintenance program to make it add up right on paper while maximizing the business value to Williams.

Using the numbers from jet advisor on the CJ2 vs CII

CJ2 burns 138 GPH at 407 KTS
CII 192 GPH at 376 KTS

CJ2 fuel cost/nm = 1.52 (@4.50)
CII = $2.29

If you add in $300/hr for the engine program the CJ2 is 2.01/nm so the Williams engines including engine programs are less money to operate than the Pratts even if the Pratt’s were free.

Your numbers may vary. Aviation week lists nationwide average Jet A price at $6.23. CJ2 would look even better at that price! My average is over $5 but I’m flying mostly for business and don’t get to shop airports that much.

Our typical flights are 900nm and we are burning 150 per hour block to block. I don’t of anybody paying the retail price $6.20 for gas, $4.50 is also our average.

The CJ2 and the 550 are really two completely different planes, the 550 interior is bigger inside by about 2 ft, and we are also carrying nearly a ton more weight into the air. We carry 1400 lbs of people and bags with full fuel and have the same range as the CJ2. The CJ2 carries 800lbs with full fuel?

Our S550 carries even more gas and has a range of 1,800 nm most days and 400kts so with the CJ2 you would have to stop and any cost savings disappears.

The motors can still be done by a large number of good shops at very reasonable prices. Avionics upgrades can be done a reasonable prices. Airframe parts are reasonable and you even by them on eBay. The Achilles heal of the 550 is not the engines, it’s the cockpit window glass.

But the CJ2 is sure a great plane and provides a great tax deduction.

Gary

The Best Light Jet is...

The one owned by a friend who is willing to dry lease it to you for the cost of programs. Make and model doesn't really matter then...

*Mic Drop*

Wow, $6+ average for JetA is a serious drag (pun intended). My average fuel cost was $3.82 in 2017, $4.07 in 2018, and thus far $4.16 in 2019 based on approximately 20K gallons purchased. CAA membership is responsible for the majority of my fuel purchases and it saves money indirectly as well. For example, Atlantic in Chicago Exec matches the CAA price in order to keep my business; I'm an Atlantic base customer.

I took a serious look at the SII, I really liked the Sierra Super SII !

CII cabin is 16' and CJ2 is 13.8 so 2.2' bigger. My CJ2 has a belted potty and side facing seat so I can put 8 in back but have to leave fuel behind and its not comfortable for a few of the folks back there (if they are full size). At FL450 I see 350PHH/side (better economy than my B200 - but its not a fair number to use for real world comparison). S550 shows that it burns 39GPH more than CJ2 - of course you have to pick the mission to compare but that's why I used somebody else's B2B numbers. Using that number on a 900NM flight, S550 will use about 100 gal more or $450. CJ2 engine program for that leg (at 150/hr) would be around $700, I don't know what a fair engine cost number is for the Pratts?

I just plugged in a 900NM flight SDL-MCI and it says it'll take 2:16 & I'll burn 1926# with a 41kt tailwind - I usually beat this by a little but not enough to make a difference. Curious what a S550 would a S550 do on this leg?

On that flight in the S550 it's 2 hrs 30 min and 2581 lbs, MCT at FL430, 41kt tailwind. In the 550 it's showing 10 minutes more and 2,545 lbs at MCT.

I have the CJ2+ in our data base and its showing 2 hrs 21 min, 2011 lbs at FL450, MCT. So actually the CJ2 fuel saving is 83 gallons @4.50, $377 on that leg which is impressive.

I think even if you are doing both hot sections and overhaul's on the JT15D's your at $171 hr total for both motors so that breaks down for $50k each side for the hots and $250k for each overhaul. Everything really depends on the cycle times on the turbine blades but even if you need to swap one out they can be easily sourced at a reasonable number. Of course you don't have to do an overhaul any longer so your motor costs drop even further.

Gary

So $85/hr for Pratts & 153/hr for Williams. Depending on the $/gal you pick these costs look pretty close.

But, like you said, the CJ2 is a big tax deduction.......

The Legacy vs 525 series cost analysis all depends on how you operate / maintain the legacy airplane. If you understand the legacy airframes and how to maintain them economically, they are very hard to beat! If you plan to drop them off at Textron or Westar... you're probably better of with a CJ _!

In one year we saved $60k just in glass for two Citations we owned / operated.

The other factor is how much you fly, if you fly 100 hours a year the fuel savings of the FJ-44 doesn't add up to much and you're paying for 50 hours of engine program you aren't using. If you fly 300 a year, the lower fuel burn and MUCH lower maintenance really starts to add up. (probably enough to pay the difference for the newer airplane)

A couple of other points;

- A 550 is more capable than a CJ2... and a 560 is WAY more capable.

- From a maintenance standpoint the CJ series is so far superior in it's design and simplicity that there is almost no comparison.

Chip,

How much is 525 maintenance cost a year? We have a Blackhawk C90B that we usually pay about 35,000 a year on inspections and whatever breaks. I keep looking at CJ1, CJ2 and some CJ3 on controller, those are my dream light jet!

I agree in concept but the CJ's are also built extra "light" or.... "heavy on the light"
Its as if someone walked thru the plant at Wichita and told the workers to use 30% less of everything, material thicknesses, structure, etc... Some of that for good reason to be sure. When you see a baggage compartment built out of "Aerospace Cardboard" you wonder...

I maintain 2 560's, an Ultra and an Encore and one CJ3. The newer CJ3 has more faults, failures and miscompares for all of its superior design and simplicity. More bulletins and advisory items too. You pay one way or another. The older 560's mostly soldier on each day without complaint but they burn more fuel and have no sex appeal whatsoever.