BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 12:11

Username Protected wrote:

Yes. Williams is the only approved maintenance facility to overhaul and repair their engines. They do not provide maintenance data to any other shop. Williams calls the OH a Major Periodic Inspection that makes it mandatory for Part 91.

Not to take issue with anyone flying these, but we should all pay attention to what they're doing. For those of us that might look at used jets, this is a clarion call. No one else can work on the engines. One can't fly past TBO as they've recharacterized it in a way that makes it mandatory. I'm not a fan.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 12:24

Username Protected wrote:

Yes. Williams is the only approved maintenance facility to overhaul and repair their engines. They do not provide maintenance data to any other shop. Williams calls the OH a Major Periodic Inspection that makes it mandatory for Part 91.

I don’t see how to economically break this death grip Williams has. Does seem that FAA regs enable them Part 91. Why can’t we inspect and R&R with decently priced parts? On an individual basis there’re is no win win for someone to fight them. Should be possible though. Is ther an angle?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 12:40

Username Protected wrote:

Why can’t we inspect and R&R with decently priced parts?

Because Williams does not provide a manual to perform the Major Periodic Inspections (HSI & OH) and parts are only available from Williams.

I have attended a 3 day maintenance class Williams gives for owners. They showed how they strip down the engines at OH and basically rebuild them with many new parts. Many parts are designed to be consumable and they slowly burn up or self destruct to be replaced at the MPI.

Some parts come from vendors like the FCU & FADEC but many engine internal parts are manufactured using proprietary Williams processes.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 13:13

Username Protected wrote:

Yes. Williams is the only approved maintenance facility to overhaul and repair their engines. They do not provide maintenance data to any other shop. Williams calls the OH a Major Periodic Inspection that makes it mandatory for Part 91.

I don’t see how to economically break this death grip Williams has. Does seem that FAA regs enable them Part 91. Why can’t we inspect and R&R with decently priced parts? On an individual basis there’re is no win win for someone to fight them. Should be possible though. Is ther an angle?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 16:13

Username Protected wrote:

The only way to break the grip is buy something with another brand of power. Get right up to the threshold with Cessna and tell them you've changed your mind and want options for engine maint. and will by going with a Phenom. You liked the plane for so many reasons, but the engine single source monopoly is a deal killer. Enough people do that and cessna starts to pressure williams. Oh but did I mention the FJ's are pretty damn reliable?

Textron Aviation will be happy to sell you a XLS+, Latitude, or Sovereign+ that all have P&W engines.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 16:18

Username Protected wrote:

The only way to break the grip is buy something with another brand of power. Get right up to the threshold with Cessna and tell them you've changed your mind and want options for engine maint. and will by going with a Phenom. You liked the plane for so many reasons, but the engine single source monopoly is a deal killer. Enough people do that and cessna starts to pressure williams. Oh but did I mention the FJ's are pretty damn reliable?

Textron Aviation will be happy to sell you a XLS+, Latitude, or Sovereign+ that all have P&W engines.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 17:12

It's my understanding that Williams is proprietary with their engines because the FJ44 is a derivative of their cruise missile engine. I don't know if there are DOD caveats to it, but I've been told they want to keep their technology in-house and not share it with the world.

The PWC 600 series is also proprietary to Pratt & Whitney. You can't get an HSI or OH outside of Pratt. Again, the 600 series engines are derivatives of Pratt's cruise missile engine.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 17:19

Yes, they've been saying that. Do you really believe one can't reverse engineer these? It sounds like a great sales line.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 17:20

Username Protected wrote:

It's my understanding that Williams is proprietary with their engines because the FJ44 is a derivative of their cruise missile engine. I don't know if there are DOD caveats to it, but I've been told they want to keep their technology in-house and not share it with the world.

The PWC 600 series is also proprietary to Pratt & Whitney. You can't get an HSI or OH outside of Pratt. Again, the 600 series engines are derivatives of Pratt's cruise missile engine.

This is information I've never heard before regarding the P&W engines.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 17:24

Here's what Williams did in a nutshell, they designed a more fuel efficient engine and then turned right around and charged a premium for the upkeep of that engine that washes out the savings. Another way to say that is you save money on fuel and hand it to Williams.

Williams has over 5000 engines out there, most of those on the CJ series, but also the Premier I / IA, Legacy Citation conversions, Beechjet 400A / Hawker 400XP conversions and of course the Cirrus Jet and PC-24!

They aren't going anywhere and I doubt they'll release control of the MPI monopoly.

If they did it would probably look very similar to what Pratt has done with their DOF shops.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 17:32

Wry insightful post, Chip.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Mar 2019, 17:56

Username Protected wrote:

The only way to break the grip is buy something with another brand of power. Get right up to the threshold with Cessna and tell them you've changed your mind and want options for engine maint. and will by going with a Phenom. You liked the plane for so many reasons, but the engine single source monopoly is a deal killer. Enough people do that and cessna starts to pressure williams. Oh but did I mention the FJ's are pretty damn reliable?