11 Jul 2025, 06:21 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 11:51 |
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Joined: 12/16/07 Posts: 18750 Post Likes: +29273 Company: Real Estate development Location: Addison -North Dallas(ADS), Texas
Aircraft: In between
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Agree with you John if all facts are known going in. I'm just a free markets guy and don't believe a company should have this much market control (it's just how I am). For a user that would rather pay and not worry about things, fine. It does limit after market repair that might be done by other folks and make one go back there. Fine for Williams, not so great for folks that would like other options. We've had folks quote outlandish prices for some parts, but have always found a way to get it done more economically when we had choices. Some folks like Whole Life insurance for it's guarantees and pay big bucks to sleep at night. I'm a buy term insurance, invest the difference and can accept I have some risk 
_________________ Dave Siciliano, ATP
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 11:58 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8163 Post Likes: +10520 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: They offered me the 300 hour program on a plane that was on program.
I think "new enrollment" means "new customer", not "first time for plane".
Mike C. Well, in that case they are telling you one thing and me another. Sure, hope that isn't the case. That would be disappointing.
Hi Chip, We formally do not offer this option. We previously used this as a new enrollment incentive. However, if you are ever working a new enrollment, we can have that discussion to see if it would be an option. Sincerely,
For support by phone: 1-800-859-3544 (US) 1-248-960-2929 (Outside of US)
_________________ Winners don’t whine.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 11:59 |
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Joined: 09/04/10 Posts: 3537 Post Likes: +3229
Aircraft: C55, PC-12
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The other option is to buy a legacy citation with a used engine & parts market, aftermarket overhaul solutions and the ability to fly it past the TBO (or whatever you call it). The downside is these airplanes burn more fuel but you can save money if you are willing to dig-in (Tarver style) and find used parts when stuff breaks. There is a lot of value in these end-stage jets if you are willing to do your homework and fly older technology that (because of its age) is more likely to break. If I spent less time on BT, I could have used that time to source cheap parts and fly a cheaper legacy citation. I hope you guys are happy, it cost me a lot of money to be here........ 
_________________ John Lockhart Phoenix, AZ Ridgway, CO
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 11:59 |
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Joined: 12/30/15 Posts: 772 Post Likes: +784 Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
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Username Protected wrote: Agree with you John if all facts are known going in. I'm just a free markets guy and don't believe a company should have this much market control (it's just how I am). For a user that would rather pay and not worry about things, fine. It does limit after market repair that might be done by other folks and make one go back there. Fine for Williams, not so great for folks that would like other options. We've had folks quote outlandish prices for some parts, but have always found a way to get it done more economically when we had choices. Some folks like Whole Life insurance for it's guarantees and pay big bucks to sleep at night. I'm a buy term insurance, invest the difference and can accept I have some risk  Agree about free markets, but there are just some times when the consumer is over the proverbial barrel. Think about companies that have ERP systems for their businesses. Once locked in, have fun getting any sort of competitive quotes for modifications, upgrades, etc. Power plants similar. Not the best situation, but am struggling to think of an alternative other than to just go complete third party, but then there are warranty issues in the early years. Or can go at risk and pay as you go. I don't know about jet engines on GA planes, but frequently in other power plant situations, the OEM beats the engine guys down so hard in price to get the engines on the airframe, that the engine manufacturers count on the repair & maintenance revenue stream to recover their costs.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 14:10 |
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Joined: 12/30/15 Posts: 772 Post Likes: +784 Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
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Username Protected wrote: Instead of selling OEM engines, maybe Williams should just lease them (almost the same thing as is already happening). You buy a new plane, but lease the power by the hour. No way to be "off program", and guaranteed residual income for Williams for as long as the plane stays airworthy. "almost the same thing as is already happening" is not really already happening. Williams and the plane manufacturer get a lump sum up front when the plane is purchased. Then the owner can decide to participate or not participate in the programs. If he or she does, then they make variable payments based on hours. If not, no variable payments. In the case where Williams just "leases" the engine there is no lump sum up front. What if the owner only flies the plane sporadically? How does Williams recover its costs? So how does this model work if one owner flies 50 hours a year, the another owner flies 150 hours a year and number three flies 300 hours per year? You have three owners with an identical asset, who are paying differential expenses to the manufacturer based solely on their usage. This makes no sense. Usage based fees make sense when the provider of the good or service incurs expense based on usage. Williams incurs no incremental expense based upon the owners' usage of the engine. Williams has no control over whether the owner flies the thing every day or lets it sit in the hangar.
Last edited on 26 Mar 2019, 14:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 14:16 |
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Joined: 12/16/07 Posts: 18750 Post Likes: +29273 Company: Real Estate development Location: Addison -North Dallas(ADS), Texas
Aircraft: In between
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Username Protected wrote: I hope you guys are happy, it cost me a lot of money to be here........  Just can't put a price on happiness, John 
_________________ Dave Siciliano, ATP
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 14:29 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2852 Post Likes: +2795 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: Lancair Evolution
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Username Protected wrote: In the case where Williams just "leases" the engine there is no lump sum up front. What if the owner only flies the plane sporadically? How does Williams recover its costs? Same as now, with a minimum annual number of hours you get billed for whether you fly that many hours or not. Williams gets a guaranteed income stream. It's the widespread subscription model of pricing. Quote: So how does this model work if one owner flies 50 hours a year, the another owner flies 150 hours a year and number three flies 300 hours per year? I believe in the current plan the minimum is 150 hours/year whether you fly them or not, so in your example, the first two guys pay the same annual amount, the last guy pays twice that.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 14:41 |
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Joined: 12/30/15 Posts: 772 Post Likes: +784 Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
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Username Protected wrote: In the case where Williams just "leases" the engine there is no lump sum up front. What if the owner only flies the plane sporadically? How does Williams recover its costs? Same as now, with a minimum annual number of hours you get billed for whether you fly that many hours or not. Williams gets a guaranteed income stream. It's the widespread subscription model of pricing. Quote: So how does this model work if one owner flies 50 hours a year, the another owner flies 150 hours a year and number three flies 300 hours per year? I believe in the current plan the minimum is 150 hours/year whether you fly them or not, so in your example, the first two guys pay the same annual amount, the last guy pays twice that.
Why should the last guy pay 2x the prior two guys? It makes sense that they all pay the same fixed cost up front and then a variable cost based upon their usage, but makes no sense that someone pays 2x all-in based solely on their pattern of usage. Would you want to pay 2x for your car what someone else pays just because you drive more miles in a year? Sure you are going to pay more in brakes, fuel, tires, etc. But should you pay more for the basic unit of transportation? If the manufacturers have to recover all of their costs based upon a subscription model, then it creates a free rider issue for the low time users.
Also, most subscription models do NOT favor the consumer. Most favor the manufacturer or producer. Why has software in many instances gone to a calendar-based (not usage, but calendar-based) subscription model? I doubt that it is because it provides the consumer greater benefit. It enables the producer to charge over and over again for the same product.
Looking for perfection here guys.. does not exist. But I would be very skeptical of any model where the manufacturer has to recover all of its revenue based upon usage.
Last edited on 26 Mar 2019, 14:44, edited 3 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 14:45 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8163 Post Likes: +10520 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: How did a 525 like this one go past 3500 hrs and not on engine program? https://www.controller.com/listings/air ... tation-jet^^ anyone know?
It's not past TBO, they overhauled the engines before the program was dropped.
It's sold by the way.
_________________ Winners don’t whine.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 14:48 |
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Joined: 10/27/10 Posts: 10790 Post Likes: +6890 Location: Cambridge, MA (KLWM)
Aircraft: 1997 A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: Why should the last guy pay 2x the prior two guys? It makes sense that they all pay the same fixed cost up front and then a variable cost based upon their usage, but makes no sense that someone pays 2x all in based solely on their pattern of usage. Would you want to pay 2x for your car what someone else pays just because you drive more miles in a year? Sure you are going to pay more in brakes, fuel, tires, etc. But should you pay more for the basic unit of transportation? If the manufacturers have to recover all of their costs based upon a subscription model, then it creates a free rider issue for the low time users.
Also, most subscription models do NOT favor the consumer. Most favor the manufacturer or producer. Why has software in many instances gone to a calendar (not usage but calendar) based subscription model? I doubt that it is because it provides the consumer greater benefit. It enables the producer to charge over and over again for the same product. Is the comparison car or an Uber? An airplane you own or NetJets? I pay more for Uber the more I use it. For software, software costs real money to maintain. If a vendor can find a way to transition people to recurring revenue, that’s a good match for the expenses. The prior alternative was to charge so much for the license that you could (hopefully) fund the ongoing maintenance. Of course, now that they have your money, they have incentive to skimp or to decide that your license for v1 is perpetual, but now they have a v2 coming out that you’ll need to buy if you want the latest. Leasing or recurring calendar based licensing avoids those issues and aligns consumer and producer in some ways. (And not in others) Maybe the model is partial up-front and power by the hour with an annual minimum. Engines do degrade from disuse.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 26 Mar 2019, 15:05 |
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Joined: 12/30/15 Posts: 772 Post Likes: +784 Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
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Username Protected wrote: Is the comparison car or an Uber? An airplane you own or NetJets? I pay more for Uber the more I use it.
For software, software costs real money to maintain. If a vendor can find a way to transition people to recurring revenue, that’s a good match for the expenses. The prior alternative was to charge so much for the license that you could (hopefully) fund the ongoing maintenance. Of course, now that they have your money, they have incentive to skimp or to decide that your license for v1 is perpetual, but now they have a v2 coming out that you’ll need to buy if you want the latest. Leasing or recurring calendar based licensing avoids those issues and aligns consumer and producer in some ways. (And not in others)
Maybe the model is partial up-front and power by the hour with an annual minimum. Engines do degrade from disuse. Original statement was concerning engine programs on purchased planes. Uber not a good comparison. The driver bought his car and is charging you directly for use of his resources. So driver/owner has already paid OEM. I dunno, to each his own, but from my perspective once you buy something, it is on you to use, maintain, abuse as you see fit. The usage model with regard to fixed assets is problematic. In fact, it has all sorts of other issues. What if there is a dispute about fees? Can the engine company shut you out of your own plane? What if they decide to charge more per hour than originally bargained for? Understand that they have you over a barrel whilst under warranty. But you can still opt out of the programs or go to third party... cost of doing so for sure...
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