Thanks John, it is. But I do still miss my 58 Baron. Had it for nine years and nearly 2000 hours. Everyone has their favorite airplane and that’s mine. Best piston GA airplane ever made.

John, for the record the C90GT’s cruise at FL250 at 262-268 kts burning 425 to 485 lbs per hour depending on temperature. Just another data point, I know the C425 is a great bird.

Can't beat the KA cabin either.

Have a little over 300hrs in the Conquest 1 and loved every minute of it.

The company I flew them for had three of them. They bought another for parts and over hauled the engines and started swapping them and overhauling all of them.

They were actually getting them done cheaper than the 421 engines on a per hour basis. And talk about bullet proof.

And when I first flew a 414 I remembered Doug saying how glorious the cockpit was and I quickly agreed.

You guys have me comparing 425 costs to the 421 on a relaxing Sunday afternoon.

I've eliminated:
Fuel - slightly favoring the Conquest by maybe $15/hr
Hangar - no difference
Insurance - roughly similar, favors the 421 due to lower hull value, call it a wash with the lower fuel cost of the 425
Training - no difference

Differences:
Cost of capital - 425 would be 15k/yr increase, ballpark
Maintenance - this is the only major variable I see

What is the realistic hourly maintenance cost of the 425, not counting engine reserves?

We've put 575 hrs on the 421 averaging $250/hr in maintenance costs (first year was $265, last year was $240, which should continue to decrease).

Is it possible the never ending costs of the piston engines might roughly equal the cost of the phase inspections?

I wrote this post a while back. I'm sorry I don't know how to link to it so I am just copying and pasting.


The 425 is similar. There are 3 regular, recurring inspections: Phase 2, 3, and D. Assuming 150 hours per year in year 1 (the heavy year) you would do a 2,3,D and then another phase 2 (phase 2 is due every 100 hours). Then in year 2 (your light year) you would do a 2 and 3, and then midway through another 2. Here are the costs:

Phase 2,3,D flat rate inspection at Signature Technicair (top shop for Conquests along with Weststar, located in CA): $9800

Phase 2,3 flat rate: $3800

Phase 2 flat rate: $1900

So not including the additional phases your regular, recurring inspection costs average out at $7750 per year assuming 150 hours per year. A little more than for the citation, but some of that is probably being based in CA and paying a high end shop that's owned by a public company (BBA). But then you have to add in the additional phases (the SIDs) which are similar in scope to the citation or maybe a bit more involved. There's also a CPCP (corrosion) which has required inspections every 2,3, and 5 years. The 2 and 3 year inspections are <$1K but the 5 year is around $5K. The rule of thumb my shop uses is to triple the flat rate inspection cost and that is about what the out the door cost is every year assuming you do a few SIDs each year and a few things break (but nothing really expensive) and consumables (gaskets, o rings, oil analysis, filters, and the "hazmat/misc shop supplies" fees). So like this (again, for 150 hours/year and rounding to the nearest thousand):

year 1 (2,3,D plus 2) = $30K + $6K = $36K
year 2 (2,3 plus 2) = $12K + $6K = $18K

Average real world MX for a 425 at a top shop assuming nothing really expensive breaks like a windshield or a flow pack = $27K per year. But my airplane is 35 years old and I have had some expensive items go in the first 2.5 years of ownership. Here's a few:

flow pack $10K
fuel controller $10K
fuel leaks $8K
door seal $2K
stall vane $2K
SG overhauls $4K

Anyway some of those items can be attributed to by a new (used) airplane and getting it sorted out. Actually I spent probably $75K total in the first year on catch up MX (not including upgrades) which I think would be easy to do on any newly purchased 35 year old turbine assuming you want it totally squawk free, rigged correctly, no fuel leaks, no pressurization leaks, etc. But things have settled down now and I'm not doing anything like that anymore. Still, the conclusion is that there's no way you are going to operate a 425 on less than $27K in MX per year for 150 hours. In reality it's even more if you include the inevitable upgrade here and there (it is 35 years old) and the occasional expensive fix. If you budgeted $35K/yr you wouldn't be disappointed in most years. That's why I can't understand how given the same set of assumptions you could maintain a jet for a third of that.

That makes it a toss up between the 421 & 425. There will be outlier years for each plane, particular examples could swing it either way cost wise. Piston engine frustrations favor the 425. Interesting.

Thanks Scott.

I’d say the per mile cost of a 421 and a 425 are within 20% of each other. If you are doing a lot of short trips (<200 nm) the the cost delta will be greater.

John and Scott-

Thanks for starting this thread John and contributing Scott. I found it a bit coincidental to log in yesterday and see it, maybe even a bit of a sign! I sold my Baron a few weeks ago and have been struggling to determine what the next bird should be- 414A, 421 or 425. Most of my trips are sub 200NM but need to take 8 people (myself included) (4 of which are kids) and some bags. I feel the 414 is too close to max GW which is pushing me towards the 421 but that whole GTSIO thing has me a bit timid. All signs point to the Conquest 1 being the right plane albeit a slightly(?) more expensive plane compared to the 421 but the SIDS inspections leave a big question that I've tried to uncover with little luck.

Do either of you have a breakdown of what the SIDs inspections are and how often they occur assuming you manage the plane on the time-based program? Scott- your post breaking down the 2,3,D was really helpful but for someone who might put less than 150 hrs per year, what are the actual time intervals for the 3 and D inspection?

Is it really almost the same or slightly more to have the peace of mind of P&Ws vs. a piston 421?

Thanks again for the posts!

O, and, another (and potentially bigger) problem is finding a good example to buy! Currently only a handful for sale on Controller, I think 9 at last count. Of those 9, 2-3 are phony adds that the broker has up but doesn't actually have for sale.

Can a potential buyer expect to have a long wait or are off-market deals more common compared to its piston brethren?

Yeah, and some of the ones currently on Controller are really old and were for sale a year ago. Maybe those are the phony ones. When I bought mine 2.5 years ago there were 30 for sale! I know Griffith aviation is sort of the de facto conquest broker but his website only shows conquest II's for sale right now. Eagle aviation in south carolina sometimes represents conquests. I guess if you are serious maybe put your name out to those guys and see if you get a bite.

FWIW, I've had my Conquest I for almost a year now and have really enjoyed the plane. I moved up from a 414A (another great plane) and haven't looked back. As mentioned the cockpit is very comfy, so for the operator/owner it's icing on the cake.

I initially was going to buy a TBM 700B but after learning the true cost of ownership in a prebuy , and attending Simcom I made the decision to move forward on the Conquest, and haven't looked back. Let's just say I'm a very satisfied customer and have an appreciation for Cessna's design - Too bad they didn't continue producing this airframe.

Just curious if anyone here with a Conquest I put strakes on their bird and noted any performance gains. The few owners I spoke with, purchased their planes with strakes previously installed so they don't really have before and after info. I know the hubcaps are great and will be installing those, but curious what the strakes have gained.

Thanks,

Jeff

The 425 has about 1000+ pounds more useful load than a 414A or 421.


I was just making a WAG... Jeff, how much more useful did you see.

Zach, if you fly 100 hours per year or less, then you will alternate between the 2,3 inspections and the 2,3,D inspections. There won't be a need for an additional phase 2 at 101 hours. It's like this:

phase 2: every 100 hours or 12 months
phase 3: every 200 hours or 12 months.
phase D: every 600 hours or 24 months.

I have a spreadsheet on the SIDs which I'll send you later. Most of the SIDs are pretty insignificant. But a couple are kind of big however those are based on hours and the intervals are pretty long. For example, the rudder torque tube inspection is a big one (not sure of the cost) but it's due every 2500 hours. One thing to look for is how many hours your candidate airplane has since all the SIDs were done in 2008/9. If it is less than 1000 hours then you have a nice long time before any of the big ones are due again.

But remember, if you move from a baron to a 425, you will likely fly more, not less. It's way more capable (like any turbine) and makes long trips doable. If you have a lot of short hops and need to carry 8 people, you may look into taking the toilet out. I have 8 seats and no toilet and it makes the cabin huge. You'll have to find the 2 optional 7th and 8th seats someplace.

Can you elaborate on that? Were you including the acquisition cost in the equation or did you reason operating costs as being higher on the TBM than the conquest?