All,

Maybe I've gone crazy but I'm looking at a plane with zero log books.

I've read about this in a few other threads and the consensus seems to be no deal, but just wanted to run this one by the group think.

Looking at this plane:

http://www.skywagons.com/airplanes-fors ... lle-n2525c

It looks like it's in good shape (aside from the missing logs). If I was to move forward in the purchase process with this plane, I'm thinking the following would need to be done:

-Make sure current ADs have been complied with
-Check 337s and FAA records and make sure there isn't anything on the plane that wasn't original that doesn't have a 337 filed with the FAA

The way I understand it, as long as proper 337s have been filed for anything that deviates from the original Type Certificate, the only things needed for the plane to be airworthy would be current annual and transponder and pitot static check.

Thoughts?

Nice looking plane, I would not say no deal but the value is less than with logs. Also I might do a full annual as part of pre-buy to look for damage. If you are going to own it for several years, you will start to build logs and lessen the impact of No Logs.

If you plan a short ownership, I would steer clear as it will be much harder to sell.

David,

Thanks, that what I'm thinking. The VREF is around the asking (whatever that is worth) so I'm not sure what the discount would be for the missing logs. I would hope that if I kept it 4-5 years and kept it flying regularly it would give it enough of a history to lessen the impact.

I have seen some percentages thrown around for no logs but I am not sure that there is a number. A 300k plane with no logs is different from a 30k plane with no logs.

As you say it would need at a minimum the Annual to be logged and ELT entries. You would also need the 337 paperwork. If VREF is around asking price then it is overpriced. The hard part is you probably need to put a few thousand into it to get it inspected and flying.

Hard to drop that much on a prebuy if you may end up walking away. Another big issue is that with no logs the engine and prop are essentially at TBO from a value point of view.
The big question is what could you get for the same cost. I would not walk away yet but don't get too committed.

They have started logs, but one year. So it is currenlty in annual. It does have some paperwork to indicate airframe and engine time, but you're right the next buyer could consider the engine and prop at TBO

Engine time at TBO is meaningless for part 91. For the discount he is getting he could buy a new prop and go a good distance toward an engine overhaul and still be money ahead.

They do have oil analysis records that show usage.

Damn I was really hoping to win that raffle, just my luck!

AC 43.9 talks about record retention, what is legally required, and also has a paragraph on lost or destroyed records.

Jeff

Jeff,

Great, thanks for the heads up I'll give it a look.

Tom,

I agree. The oil analysis should do a good job in verifying the history and amount run per year. I also agree TBO is a meaningless number, except when you're selling the plane down the road.

Eric,

How does the seller explain that he has oil analyses but no log books?

Im no expert, but for me it will all depend on the selling price.

A 170 should be an easy airplane to recreate logs on.

But, IMO, it's still priced too high. I would probably only have real interest if I could buy below $25k, simply because I don't want to spend a lot of money on the 4th airplane in the family. I'm a serious low-ball buyer though... cash, As-is where is sight unseen*





*Pending anything I can find on a thorough mechanics pre-flight, assuming the price is right.

This is an excellent situation to involve a professional aircraft appraiser because missing log books are a serious issue from an evaluation perspective. The closest professional is found by going to the NAAA website (http://www.plane-values.com) and using the Appraiser Finder (upper right corner of the page). Any of those members should be able to help you but if you run into problems, don't hesitate to let me know.

With missing log books it will not be possible to validate AFTT, previous maintenance events or previous damage events and for these reasons, the market places a serious penalty on those aircraft with missing records. The publications such as Vref do no address missing logs or entries meaning that if the asking price is close to Vref then it is overpriced or they ignored the log book issue altogether.

Good luck.

I have several friends with Cessna 195's. Two of them have had extensive damage and are being repaired as we speak. They will be meticulously gone through, every wire, every rivet, every cable etc. Their past history, and logs, mean nothing.

A 170 of this vintage is little different. Condition is everything and logs mean nothing, less than nothing. What difference does it make if the airplane had an generator replaced or a wing repaired in 1960?. What matters is its condition today. The airplane is missing logs, but it is not missing a documented history from the shop that has been maintaining it.

If it were a perfect world, and this airplane was sitting in Mena, Arkansas, you could have Del Lehman go over and inspect the airframe from stem to stern and know EVERYTHING you need to know. What you do need to know is that the airplane is structurally straight and structurally sound. That is a "specific" kind of pre buy but not difficult to attain. Del Lehman could give you a "checklist" that you could perform with an IA in a few hours and verify its "structural" integrity.

The rest is fluff. If you want a 170, you are idling away an opportunity worrying about pages of ink that are meaningless.

Jgreen

What would the cost (approximate) be for an appraisal on an airplane similar to this?