BeechTalk - BT - Piston-Powered Lancair Evolution?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2017, 13:49

Username Protected wrote:

Obviously [the Evo is] bigger, SAFER and more comfortable

I think we're done here.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2017, 15:19

Username Protected wrote:

Both have similar speeds. Obviously it's bigger, safer and more comfortable but I don't see how it's worth so much more to carry 4 people about the same speed.

you forgot insurable too

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2017, 22:52

Username Protected wrote:

When I saw the first flying prototype in 2010 of the piston-evolution I thought it was a game-changer. Unfortunately the challenges Doug referenced with the iE2 engine seemed to take the concept off-the-table. I had periodic conversations over the last 5 years with Lancair's regional salesman in my area and they acted like they didn't even want to talk about it.....kind of implied that I was crazy for not focusing on the turbine.

The specs for the fuel economy, cruise speed and range are extremely attractive. In fact, I think you could make the argument that any trip over 1000 nautical miles, the piston version is faster (block-to-block).

It will be very interesting to see how this engine performs going forward.

No, you would out perform the piston in almost any distance. You have to remember that the piston won't climb nearly as well as the turbine and the speed is a decent amount slower.

Here's a comparison:

Piston Evo
TAS 240
Climb rate: ~1000fpm
Cruise Fuel flow: 23 gph

Turbine Evo (my plane)
TAS 310
Climb rate: 2500
Cruise Fuel flow: 39 gph

I can carry enough fuel for a 1,000 nm trip and still have an hour of fuel left.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2017, 23:02

So Gerry, since you fly one- it's basically a IVp right? I mean, just an expensive IVp

:lol:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2017, 23:12

Username Protected wrote:

5.5 Differential, it's plenty for the altitudes the IV flies at. I think that works out to sea level up to around 12Kish. Sweet spot for this plane is 17.5 at 260kts buring 17.5 GPH. It will go 1000 nmiles, hold 800lbs of stuff. It's good looking and fun/easy to fly. It's almost the perfect airplane..for ME. Far and away the best airplane I've owned or flown.

The EVO obviously tops those stats but at a much higher price tag. It's also incredibly ugly.

Ugly? I take offense! :kidding: IMO it's much better looking than the IV. The IV has almost zero baggage space and very little rear passenger room as well.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2017, 23:14

Username Protected wrote:

So Gerry, since you fly one- it's basically a IVp right? I mean, just an expensive IVp

:lol:

Right, lol

In all seriousness though, if I were to look at the IV-P I'd consider RDD's LX-7 conversion. It redesigns the wing to make it have good fly/stall characteristics like the Evo, adds new avionics (G3X), new engine (piston or turbine) and parachute.

With 180 gal tank and potential 300 ktas with a -28 using 36 gph. That would be a traveling machine!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Mar 2017, 10:32

Username Protected wrote:

So Gerry, since you fly one- it's basically a IVp right? I mean, just an expensive IVp

:lol:

Right, lol

In all seriousness though, if I were to look at the IV-P I'd consider RDD's LX-7 conversion. It redesigns the wing to make it have good fly/stall characteristics like the Evo, adds new avionics (G3X), new engine (piston or turbine) and parachute.

With 180 gal tank and potential 300 ktas with a -28 using 36 gph. That would be a traveling machine!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Mar 2017, 10:52

Username Protected wrote:

Right, lol

In all seriousness though, if I were to look at the IV-P I'd consider RDD's LX-7 conversion. It redesigns the wing to make it have good fly/stall characteristics like the Evo, adds new avionics (G3X), new engine (piston or turbine) and parachute.

With 180 gal tank and potential 300 ktas with a -28 using 36 gph. That would be a traveling machine!

yes, agree, but doesn't solve the insurance problem...how many fleet hours are going to be required before there are reasonable insurance premiums available, there is talk of an agreement between RDD and the insurance companies, but i haven't seen anything tangible...if they do come out with something, it is going to take years for the fleet to earn the ability to keep whatever arrangement they come up with

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Mar 2017, 10:54

With all of that said, I wouldn't buy the VI-P to carry much more than 2 people. It's just not very spacious. The Evo has a LOT of room. I had two friends in the back of my plane, one 6'2" 265lbs and the other 6'5" and both said they had plenty of room.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Mar 2017, 11:23

Username Protected wrote:

I've heard similar talk. I was in RDD's booth at Sun N Fun last year when they had insurance people talking about the LX-7 and they seemed to feel it was a very big deal. Basically the insurance people said that if they could demonstrate the benign flight characteristics then they would offer some sort of insurance. How long that would take, I have no idea.

and how long that would last after the FIRST incident, i'll almost guarantee you they'll send out cancellation notices when it happens

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Mar 2017, 11:39

The EVO is not easy to insure either. The IV-P is not uninsurable; it is just expensive to insure. I think there is one carrier left that writes EVO policies and it doesn't take too many $1 million hull write offs for them to bail.

What's the cost of insuring an EVO?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Mar 2017, 12:25

Username Protected wrote:

The EVO is not easy to insure either. The IV-P is not uninsurable; it is just expensive to insure. I think there is one carrier left that writes EVO policies and it doesn't take too many $1 million hull write offs for them to bail.

What's the cost of insuring an EVO?

is this just something you decided on your own, or have you done some actual research? the EVO is very insurable, and at very reasonable rates from the direct inquiries i've made

for the EVO, Insurance has ranged from $19,800 in 2010 to $13,600 today for $1 mil smooth and $1.2 mil hull, that's 1.6% to 1.1%....a IVP with a 250k hull would be around $14,000-$16,000 which is about 6% or higher...likely not even have the option of getting $1mil smooth on a IVp

i'm still not spending 1.5m on a 4 seat turbo prop, i'll just spend 2m and get a PC12, insurance and resale are no longer concerns

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Mar 2017, 15:25

Username Protected wrote:

the EVO is very insurable, and at very reasonable rates from the direct inquiries i've made ... for the EVO, Insurance has ranged from $19,800 in 2010 to $13,600 today for $1 mil smooth and $1.2 mil hull, that's 1.6% to 1.1%

How recent were those inquiries? After both of the EVO hull losses went to the same carrier (Meadowbrook), they announced last October that they would stop insuring all Lancairs. That left only one carrier, the more expensive one, and no competition for EVO insurance, although some negotiations to attempt to change their mind were scheduled. I'm wondering if your quotes were before or after October.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Mar 2017, 15:47

Username Protected wrote:

the EVO is very insurable, and at very reasonable rates from the direct inquiries i've made ... for the EVO, Insurance has ranged from $19,800 in 2010 to $13,600 today for $1 mil smooth and $1.2 mil hull, that's 1.6% to 1.1%

How recent were those inquiries? After both of the EVO hull losses went to the same carrier (Meadowbrook), they announced last October that they would stop insuring all Lancairs. That left only one carrier, the more expensive one, and no competition for EVO insurance, although some negotiations to attempt to change their mind were scheduled. I'm wondering if your quotes were before or after October.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Mar 2017, 16:02

Username Protected wrote:

The EVO is not easy to insure either. The IV-P is not uninsurable; it is just expensive to insure. I think there is one carrier left that writes EVO policies and it doesn't take too many $1 million hull write offs for them to bail.

What's the cost of insuring an EVO?

The insurance issues with the Evo is because the landing gear has collapsed a few times, mostly because people aren't taking proper procedures. It's mostly the pilot's fault.