Yup.

Williams can decide to hike the hourly rate any amount, the contract doesn't limit them. If you are off program, they set the lump sum HSI and overhaul (which they call an "inspection"). Rates have been going up well above inflation every year. It is now at or near the point where the engine program costs about the same as the fuel. Williams can also change the terms of the contract on every renewal, and has done so repeatedly.

The main issue is that what you are really paying for is many years and 5000 hours away. You have no idea what the terms are going to be between now and then so you have no idea what you are going to pay for what you get. You might even find that Williams increases the TBO to 6000 hours (only if they have to pay for it, naturally). This already happened from 4000 to 5000.

Williams should just give engines away free to the OEMs. The programs more than pay for the engines over time. Typical FJ44 is now about $160/hr, $800K per engine per TBO cycle. We all know Cessna is not paying $800K per engine new in the box, so this is obviously overpriced.

Imagine what Cessna could charge if they were the only place you could maintain a Citation. If Cessna wants the old fleet to be retired, they just hike the prices. To a certain extent, they already do that with the SIDs and documents for the inspections.

Manufacturers are blatantly manipulating the rules, intended to assure safety and supposedly based on engineering and technical requirements, for business purposes.

Mike C.

Aviation is the only place in business world where you can have a complete monopoly year in and year out and everyone thinks it's just normal and they get "great service".

Ouch.

So... let's say I get dumb and trade the 421 for an early 80's 501 with JT-15s. Gas is going to cost a ton, but otherwise what are the real costs?

How much would maintenance be? Not service center maintenance, but local shop.

Seems that the airframe and systems aren't all that different from a 421...

Yeah, I'm moderately crazy.

Robert

Can't really help you with the number$, but I have flown two, low-time 501's, with usable avionics upgrades, in amazing condition.

Just unbelievable what you can buy, for less than a new Skylane.

JT-15's rock; and thrust reversers? Get outta here!

I can see your SEG from here. Just hope fuel stays cheap...but even still, a million buys a lot of overpriced fuel.

(One of the examples I flew popped up on ASO the other day, and I see it's already gone. I flew it across the country, single-pilot, the very day after I got typed. Nervous as a ho-in-church! )

Are there any used Williams engines on the market? Say you didnt enroll in TAP and then when TBO came you buy a half time engine and put it on your airplane. I'm expecting an answer somewhere around "Williams controls all used engines and wont let you do that" or something to that nature.

There are folks that are more dispatch sensitive than price sensitive. Of course, they will pay more to maintain. Also, many can't go past TBO. That's why, for part 91 folks that can repair as needed and fly past TBO there are some great bargains out there.

We were lectured by a few about purchasing our King Air five years ago; how we were eventually going to have to pay to overhaul engines, how we couldn't fly past TBO, you name it. Now, we've written off the cost of the bird over five years and have no capital in it. Still flying with engines doing fine. We've had little stuff from the bird being old, but we accept that. To each his own

Dave,
Just so I follow ......are you saying if you fly part 91 you can fly past TBO on your king air?
I need to check......but I believe on the TBM you are mandated to complete the overhaul at TBO.

I was just approached by a broker with a CItationjet converted to G1000. They are asking 1.6. He said plane will do 400 knots, full fuel useful load 1050 and 1200 mile range?
Any body have REAL numbers?

Alex Gutierrez does. You might PM him if he doesn't respond here.

Thanks Tony

Yes Michael. We've had many detailed discussions on this. There are phase inspections I much comply with. Even hot sections seem optional past TBO but we still do those. You do have to watch life limited parts. Our KA was past TBO when we purchased it.
By the way, I'm not a cheerleader for this or even recommending it to others, just pointing out the facts (best Lieutenant Friday voice).
Check with your shop that will service it. Some don't seem to want to return a TBO bird to service even when there's nothing else wrong. I've not encountered that issue.

Useful load sounds plausible--that's a little more than a M2 and I'm betting the interior is lighter in the CJ. Speed sounds on the high side. I'd bet closer to 385-390 on a non-FADEC CJ.

deleted.

BEW 6500-6700
Full fuel 3220
MTOW 10,400

You won't get 400 out of a G1000 CJ, more like 365 at FL350 and 350 at FL410 burning 600 lbs per hour.

This is at FL400


Andrew

deleted.