We paid under $2.50 a gallon last week at Denton. But it's more most places, even with the fuel discount cards. But the above price near home for me sure is nice!

Got to agree with Alex on this, that's a whole different class of airplane. My business partner who I drag along to sales meetings is not too happy about riding in a P baron but once he has a toilet onboard, he is happy - anything more is a waste of resources.

I really enjoyed loading up a bunch of friends in the KA and taking them to places like the BVI's and French Laundry but this is not a requirement. As far as the business is concerned, 4 people is all we need to carry and most of the time it is two.

Is there anything that makes a CJ easier to fly than a CII? (other than a G1000 upgrade).

What about CJ maintenance compared to the CII or the V. Also wondering how AC & pressurization systems compare. IIRC the older citations have ACMs (packs) and the CJ's have electric freon air but I'm not sure this is right. Flying in & out of Phoenix in the summer, it would be awesome to be able to plug a power cart in and cool down the cabin.

I know that the Citation V does well hot & high. What about the CJ?

One of the things I remember about flying learjets was how hard they were to get down at the start of the descent. Pull power back and you lose the cabin, push the nose over and exceed MMO, pop the spoilers (on/off is only selection) and scare the PAX. Of course you could ease them down but we tried to stay high as long as possible then do the slam dunk - flying straight turbojets you burned too much fuel down low (taxing at idle 500pph/engine, cruise up high was the same, full power down low was 2500PPH/engine - this is in an airplane that holds 6000# of fuel - pretty interesting math) - relying on old memories here, I could be off on some of this data. I'm sure Citations are much easier but all my experience is two & three pilot cockpits where everybody was busy if something went wrong.

The Citations don't lose cabin pressure when you pull power back, or at least that's not been my experience with them. Haven't had this II up higher yet, but the V was fine. We don't have the high fuel burn when taxiing the Lears had. Still, fuel burns are high down low. They are much more efficient higher up. Citation II holds 5008 pounds, V has closer to the above.

Hope that helps. I actually have a spread sheet comparing Citation models if that would help. I'd have to scan it in.

Dave

John - mission will define whether you need the seats or not. I focused on 90% of our travel (2-5 on board) and found it wasn't worth the extra fuel burn and investment to be carrying empty seats around.

I just PM'd you information I hope helps you in your evaluation. For starters, I think all Citations (525/550/560) are solid choices. The advantages from my optics I think the CJ offers include:

1. The Williams FJ44's - very efficient, economical and powerful engines, backed up by a stellar MX program. By the way, regarding the engine program - don't leave home without it.
2. Factory supported campaigns - The newer 525 is an ongoing program and you get access to factory supported campaigns such as the G1000 upgrade, a wealth of pilot tools (CPCALC, CLCALC, etc.), the Alpine upgrade (for the CJ2's), and others such as the winglet upgrade I hope gets approved in the next 1-2 years and which will be installed exclusively by Cessna.
3. G1000 upgrade - If you opt for the G1000 upgrade, you will get the lighter of the CJ airframes (sn 1 through 359), which will yield something closer to M2 performance at a fraction of the cost - if you are able to get a good deal going in, you will also be able to do better than usual on resale since your G1000 equipped CJ will compare well with the more expensive Proline equipped CJ1's and CJ1+'s. Cost of ownership will also go down (Cessna thinks so - they will give you a 22% break on pro-parts if you upgrade and that is over the life of the airframe).
4. Newer systems/airframe - The older II's, V's etc., are a bit older and predictably have more hours and will require a little bit more on the MX side - I may be wrong, but that is my perception.
5. Old avionics - I looked at about 10 airframes in buying my plane (501's, 550's, 525's), and the common denominator in all the logbooks I looked at is these old systems/avionics create a lot of headaches for their owners. In your evaluation, look into yanking out some of that old and heavy gear.

By the way, the FJ44's have a lot of excess bleed air so you won't lose pressure in the cabin when you pull back on the power. Whatever you chose you will find Textron/Cessna to be very supportive of the Citation line.

When I do finally buy my jet, I'm going to insist on Williams engines. Gas costs won't stay here forever, and that efficiency is going to be even more important later. What's the hots and TBO on the Williams vs. the Pratts? Anyone know?

I'm also going to buy something that I can upfit with Garmin boxes.

It's tempting. I've got some PE guys banging on my door trying to stick money in my account enough to buy whatever the hell I want, but if I sell to them what the hell am I supposed to do then? Last time I sold a company I was only out of work for a few weeks, but I don't do well without a job and I hated it. I don't understand how people retire. Also, if I didn't have a business need, where would I fly too?

I think I might be the wealthiest loser I know, lol. In the Marines I learned to drink and party hard in the spaces in between duty; I never really shook the mentality. You can't drink and carry on all the time, so if you're not working, what then? Sit on the beach with a bong and a eukalele? I can't do it.

Oh well, I'll keep evaluating and learning and pull the trigger when we open in Dallas like we planned. I'm still jealous of you new jet guys. Mark is living the life right now for sure. I'll just live vicariously through y'all right now, and by the time next year rolls around I'll really know exactly what to get.

Craig

The FJ44 TBO is 5000 hours and 2500 HSI which is a recent extension

The Pratts TBO is 3500 hours and one of the versions (5?) 3600 and the HSI is 1750/1800

Here is a real nice concise Citation chart for all of you.

http://www.sijet.com/download/Sierra_20 ... pdf?inline

Thanks for all the info. I'm really intrigued with the idea of a G1000 CJ. I won't need a SP waiver, and from all I hear I'm not yet scared of flying SP (after me and the insurance company are comfortable with that). G1000 is key critical to this - without it I wouldn't feel the same. I haven't actually flown a G1000 but I feel like I understand how garmin designers think and its not going to too much different than the other garmin stuff that I'm very comfortable with.

That's what I thought on the Williams. That makes tons more sense to me; the Pratts probably cost more per hour because of all that when you're on the program, and the cost in time of the increased inspection frequency matters to me too.

Thanks for the info!

I hear all these things about the Williams engines. Where does one get those serviced? There are all sorts of P&W folks out here that can work on the engines; not just factory folks. Do you need to go to a service center for a Williams? I have a fella that retired from P&W and still does a lot of work at a more cost effective rate than a service center.
Am I correct in that Sierra is now going to the GE engines?
If one goes with Sierra, they have new engines and avionics on an old air frame with a lot of capital in it.
It's all trade offs. You have to decide what fits and think about the liquidation side of the holding period: easy to get in if you have the money. Think about the discount at sale for different air frames. If I purchase a 3MM newer airframe CJ and sell in five years for 2,500,000, that loss is almost as much as I would pay for a legacy II today with mid-time engines. Of course, more maintenance on an older bird.
One just has to weigh all of this, and decide what fits best.
As with all older birds, there can be a lot of modifications. The II I'm leasing has two Garmin 430s. Gross weight increase to 14,300 which materially increases full fuel payload. Of course, one would climb a bit slower and need to step climb if going higher. I won't fill it to gross much if ever, but what's important to me, is I can and be legal.
Lots to consider (g)

John - since I seem to have stung you with the G1000 bug, here are a few pros I took from another website regarding the G1000 CJ along with other advantages I see:

Substantially Enhanced Situational Awareness – With the large moving map on the MFD and SVT on the PFD situational awareness is taken to a whole new level. Not only does it provide a hi-res depiction of mountains and bodies of water it also has a highway in the sky offering a great visual pathway of where you are going and signposts marking the locations of airports on your forward field of view making it very hard to land at the wrong airport! Maybe a gimmick to some, but not if you are SP where you need all the help you can get.

Reduced Workload - The evolution of human factors into the design of avionics systems has come a long way from the 1980s when the original equipment was designed for the CitationJet. Features like CDI auto-switching, automatic way-point and frequency loading of ILS/LOC approaches and intuitive flight plan programming really cut down on workload. Switching approaches due to a request from ATC while being vectored is a snap.

Dual FMS/AHARS – Gone are the old mechanical gyros. Replaces by AHARS systems coupled to two independent WAAS FMS/GPS units as well as two independent flight directors. The jump in redundancy and safety is exponential with this configuration.

Weight Loss – On average you can expect 80-130 lbs of weight loss depending on what comes out - all of it going directly to the increased useful load. The CG does move aft, so there may be instances when flying light where you have to watch your loading configuration.

Price - It is what is is. This is something that owner/operators need to decide for themselves. If the price provides value to the operator then get it, if not don’t! To me the price was a pro. Equipping an early serial (1-359) CJ with a G1000 is still less in most cases than buying one with a ProLine and you still don’t get WAAAS with the basic Proline equipped CJ 1+’s.

Reliability - I've already discussed this before, but the solid state, light weight Garmin gear will go a long way at making cost of ownership predictable and easy.

If the engines are on a program, they're serviced @ a CSC. I don't know if Williams will come to you if not, but on a program, it includes parts and labor, HSIs, overhauls, everything - so costs are capped and predictable. You can decide to do all MX somewhere other than a CSC and just do engine related work at the service center under the program.

Sierra's GE program is still very green, and it's for the CJ only.

A video dedicated to all my BT transition buddies:

http://www.dropbox.com/s/rf8s3e39260jh2 ... w.mp4?dl=0

Sorry it's not on YouTube

John, I recently upgraded from a G58 Baron to a Citation Mustang. I looked at the KA as well as the TBM. The type rating is tough but you are pleased that it is when you have to fly single pilot down to minima. It will give you the confidence you need. You will have no problems coming from the KA. The Mustang is easier to fly than the Baron. It's is a great short range jet with max 6 people. Sound like a CJ+ or bigger would be a good fit for you. I chose the Mustang because it suites my mission (I don't fly long legs or carry big loads). Also, I have many hours behind the G1000 making the transition easier. I joined CJP and did my research for at least two years before proceeding. It's a wonderful source of information and the owners/members are very willing to help.

Good luck with your decision. Once you fly a jet you won't look back.

Great vid! Looks like you're still really enjoying it.

Best,

Dave

I have nothing of value to add and I love following this adventure. However, this quote reminded me of a story a lear drive told me (tongue in cheek).

"you get your clearance, start the engines, declare fuel critical, and depart as quickly as possible"