15 Jan 2025, 06:09 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: New Production Jet Numbers Posted: 24 Jul 2024, 13:59 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7633 Post Likes: +9217 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: How many older jets are retired from service each year? It varies from year to year, obviously, but when I get back to the office, I can give you some rough numbers.
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: New Production Jet Numbers Posted: 24 Jul 2024, 14:05 |
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Joined: 05/01/14 Posts: 9844 Post Likes: +15180 Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
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Username Protected wrote: How many older jets are retired from service each year? It varies from year to year, obviously, but when I get back to the office, I can give you some rough numbers.
I think that is an important comparison. Is the fleet shrinking? Growing slower than demand?
A big boost in production would be expensive, but if there is long-term demand, it would also be highly profitable. There has to be a reason all of the manufacturers are being cautious and keeping volumes low. They may not be right, but it is odd that they are all in agreement.
_________________ Be kinder than I am. It’s a low bar. Flight suits = superior knowledge
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Post subject: Re: New Production Jet Numbers Posted: 24 Jul 2024, 14:50 |
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Joined: 02/09/08 Posts: 2647 Post Likes: +615 Location: Phoenix, AZ
Aircraft: N35,CL65,CE750,CL30
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Username Protected wrote: I get asked all of the time what will happen with the aircraft market / aircraft values.
The answer is prices will continue to rise until the manufacturers produce enough aircraft to meet demand or the charter business collapses.
We are simply not producing enough private jets to replace the aging fleet, much less meet demand.
Here's some numbers for popular light and mid-sized jets produced in 2023.
Phenom 100EV/EX ..................... 13 Phenom 300E ............................ 61 (16 went to NetJets) Praetor 500 ............................... 23 (12 went to FlexJet) Praetor 600 ............................... 19 (3 went to FlexJet)
Challenger 3500 ......................... 60 (11 went to FlexJet)
Gulfstream G280 ......................... 22
HondaJet ................................... 20
Citation M2 ................................ 29 Citation CJ3+ ............................. 33 Citation CJ4 ............................... 32 Citation XLS ............................... 18 Citation Latitude ......................... 39 (24 went to NetJets) Citation Longitude ....................... 23 (15 went to NetJets)
Citations produced in 2023 for individuals ......... 135
Number of Citations that are now more then 40 years old ........ 771!
As the fleet of private jets ages out, we're replacing them to the tune of just 392 a year, and remember that is worldwide! Not just the US.
In addition to the above Cirrus added 102 SF50G2's last year, but I think that hurts more than it helps. We have recently added the Cirrus Jet to our list of aircraft we will acquire for clients, the decision was largely made on the fact that it will generate repeat business. Most buyers of that aircraft will be upgrading in a couple of years. That means it actually increases demand for light jets. Well more like 15 Challenger 3500’s.
_________________ Michael Broad CFI ATP
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Post subject: Re: New Production Jet Numbers Posted: 24 Jul 2024, 15:28 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7633 Post Likes: +9217 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: It varies from year to year, obviously, but when I get back to the office, I can give you some rough numbers.
I think that is an important comparison. Is the fleet shrinking? Growing slower than demand? A big boost in production would be expensive, but if there is long-term demand, it would also be highly profitable. There has to be a reason all of the manufacturers are being cautious and keeping volumes low. They may not be right, but it is odd that they are all in agreement.
Based on my conversations with the manufacturers, the current production rates are not what they would like them to be due to supply chain and labor issues.
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Post subject: Re: New Production Jet Numbers Posted: 24 Jul 2024, 15:48 |
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Joined: 08/16/15 Posts: 3241 Post Likes: +4536 Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
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Username Protected wrote: Based on my conversations with the manufacturers, the current production rates are not what they would like them to be due to supply chain and labor issues. This, and it affects the non-jet OEM's as well. To overcome these obstacles the increase in production costs would outpace increased sales revenue. Would also likely affect quality, as the labor pool expertise would be diluted.
_________________ Chuck Ivester Piper M600 Ogden UT
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Post subject: Re: New Production Jet Numbers Posted: 24 Jul 2024, 16:27 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7633 Post Likes: +9217 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: How many older jets are retired from service each year? Here's the number of (mostly US) jets that we've lost over the last 6 years. 2023 - 166 2022 - 243 2021 - 258 2020 - 377 2019 - 324 2018 - 386 I say "mostly US" because the system we use doesn't always track airplanes well once they leave the US. So those numbers are likely much larger, maybe even twice what I listed, logic being that as aircraft get older they leave the US and then get scrapped or crashed. It's interesting to note that as values have gone up the number of aircraft removed from service has declined. In conclusion, I don't think the current fleet is actually shrinking, relatively new players like Honda, Pilatus and especially Embraer have added a lot of production capacity. However, we certainly aren't meeting demand. Just one example: In 2019 we demoed a new Phenom 300E for an Arizona based client, the order price at that time was $9.6M and delivery was about 18 months out. Today lead times are nearly twice that and new 2024 Phenom 300E deliveries are flipping north of $14M! I was encouraged to see that most of the 2023 deliveries of 300E's did go to owners and not fractionals, it was the opposite.
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Post subject: Re: New Production Jet Numbers Posted: 24 Jul 2024, 16:32 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7633 Post Likes: +9217 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: That is interesting to hear. Supply chain and labor issues have cleared up in virtually all the businesses I work for and speak to. I can see aircraft manufacturing lagging, but didn't think it would still be a big constraint. Apparently we in aviation have the honor of being effected way downstream from everyone else. Precious metals are an issue... Pratt can't get them to build engines. We have a client that we purchased a 2022 Phenom 300E for 12/22 by May one of the engines was making metal, it took four months for Pratt to get a loaner! Even if Embraer could build more airframes, they wouldn't have engines! New aircraft production is way down from pre-Covid levels.
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Post subject: Re: New Production Jet Numbers Posted: 24 Jul 2024, 16:50 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7633 Post Likes: +9217 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Yeah, you just can’t ramp up production. Interesting logistics. Was listening to a talk by one of the Piper execs. He said they preorder their Lyc’s and Pratts over a year in advance, as well as some of the other hard to get items, like windscreens. So they know a year in advance how many planes they are building next year, and that is basically it for production. They are also purposefully under building to maximize efficiency, keep a tight handle on quality, and avoid overproducing when there is an inevitable decrease in demand. They are sold out well into the future with this strategy. Same with Cirrus. They are sold out years in advance, so not really worried about fluctuations in demand. Yep, Jim Allmon (Blackhawk) told me the same thing, they order engines a year or more in advance and last time Pratt cancelled their order! He said "what the heck??" and they said "we can't build them, so what's the point" he hopes to get half of the units they originally ordered.
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Post subject: Re: New Production Jet Numbers Posted: 24 Jul 2024, 16:58 |
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Joined: 05/03/12 Posts: 2237 Post Likes: +648 Location: Wichita, KS
Aircraft: Mooney 201
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Username Protected wrote: That is interesting to hear. Supply chain and labor issues have cleared up in virtually all the businesses I work for and speak to. I can see aircraft manufacturing lagging, but didn't think it would still be a big constraint. It is absolutely hurting Boeing and every supplier that feeds into a big jet right now. Both labor and material. Lead times are huge for just about any material or standard, and something like titanium is still hard thanks to the war and sanctions and leads to collateral problems like the "fake" titanium in the news recently.
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