Hi all

I'm at serious risk of getting the jet bug thanks to Mr Tarver and the rest on this forum (also through flying one a couple of weeks ago).

I have a slightly complicated situation:-
1. I will need a sim-based initial (or renewal) for insurance reasons
2. The aircraft I will likely initially fly to get insurance approval(25 hours or more) is overseas and I don't think I have a path to getting a type rating in that aircraft due to some complicated local regulations
3. I'm not year clear on if I'll end up buying that aircraft or look to pick one up in the US

My research seems to indicate that there is no CE501 or CE551 simulator anywhere. I've also read all the 501ISP thread and need to end up with the type rating not requiring a SIC. None of the sim schools I've tried seem to be able to offer that - either because it's too hard or they don't have the right simulator.

So I am looking for one of the following if anyone can help?
1. A sim school that will give the 500 series initial without the 2nd pilot requirement out of the box; OR
2. A flying school that has access to a 501ISP who will do my initial (then I go do a renewal at a sim school); OR
3. Someone who would hire me a 501ISP for the initial OR for a second checkride to get the second pilot required endorsement required removed. That way I could do the sim school initial, do some PIC flying overseas and then come back to get the restriction removed.

Or of course - any other ideas!

Thanks in advance
Richard

You can get that at several places, Flightsafety, Loft, CAE, Simcom to name a few.

The simulators won't be 501SP specific, but that doesn't matter. For example, the sim I used at Flightsafety was a 550. You then take a short difference course and you are all set with a type rating. If you take the checkride with crew, then you will have SIC required on your license. If you take the checkride solo, then you won't. Since you did it in the sim, you will need the 25 hours SOE (supervised operational experience). This is basically mentoring time. You are going to get at least that from the insurance company, so that's not a big deal. You need to find a mentor pilot to fly with you those hours.


You don't need a 501SP sim, nearly any CE-500 sim will work. The differences training is minimal.


You should be able to do the checkride single pilot and not have that.

I'd also suggest there is value in doing a crew initial, then fly 25-50 hours with a mentor, then do a 61.58 single pilot in about 3 to 6 months.

My path was a sim crew initial in a 550 sim, differences for a 560. Then I flew 50 hours with a mentor in my plane. Then I did the 61.58 single pilot recurrent about 6 months later (which is special for the 560, an exemption). That worked nicely.

The mentoring hours are very valuable, don't dismiss them.


There are some outfits that have access to planes for initials. You might be able to find this.

There is another path. You could fly as SIC which has relatively light requirements. You can even get an SIC type rating from any CE-500 typed pilot (I have done that already for one person). You then fly as SIC for ~25 hours and you met your SOE requirement. Now go do a full sim type rating and single pilot checkride. You should not get the 25 hour SOE or SIC required on your type rating from what I understand.

I'd be happy to have you SIC for me 25 hours, but you'd have to conform to my schedule which is likely problematic. It would take ~3 months for 25 hours. An SIC type rating would take a lot less, you need 3 takeoffs and landings, single engine maneuvering, and some CRM training, plus some ground school and that's all you need.

Is this a US type rating or Canada? The regs you state seem US, but I wasn't sure.

Mike C.

Hi Richard,

I owned/operated an Aerostar in Canada and moved up to a 501 here in the States.

Agree with everything Mike said, but particularly to underscore the value of 25-50 hours of mentor time. No substitute for experience.

Also, have you familiarized yourself with CAR 604, POC and CBAA? Owning/operating a turbine in Canada has some extra hoops to jump through.

Places like Arizona Type Ratings offer in aircraft training but of course it's not cheap to train in a jet.

Thanks John & Mike (email sent)

I need to be a little clearer. I will totally get the mentor hours (will need them for insurance anyway) and plan to do the majority of that overseas (other side of the world part of overseas). It's unlikely that I'll be looking to own or keep a 501 in Canada because I'm not here long-term.

Have reached out to ATR as it looks like they might have an aircraft. Not cheap I know but may be the best option.

I saw in some other threads that there may be a path to removal of a 'second pilot required' for the 501 with 25 hours SOE and a trip to the FSDO? Has anyone had any success with that path?

That trip to the FSDO will remove the SOE limitation from your pilot certificate. To remove a SIC-required limitation, you must take another checkride without an SIC.

Sorry - being not very smart now - the difference between SOE and 'Second Pilot Required' is? How would I end up with one vs the other on my type? (assuming I did an initial at, say, Simcom).

Thanks
Richard

The SOE limitation (Supervised Operating Experience, your pilot certificate will say "subject to pilot in command limitations) is issued when it's your first jet type and you get the type in a simulator. If you get the type in the airplane, there will be no limitation. SOE requires 25 hours with a second pilot. It can be removed by presenting proof of the 25 hours to your FSDO.

A SIC-required type rating (your certificate will say "second in command required") means that you took the checkride with a second pilot in the sim/airplane. You cannot ever operate the airplane single pilot until you take another checkride without a second pilot and receive a single-pilot type rating.

Got it - thanks

I have had exactly zero luck with getting a sim center to remove the SIC Required notation off of my license, and similarly the FAA says that a SPE doesn’t count.

I’m pretty sure that Mike’s comment about taking the simulator based checkride single pilot will/can remove the SIC required is incorrect unless the sim is a 501/551 which doesn’t exist. This might have been the case many moons ago, but not the current interpretation of the regulations.

The only way I’ve been able to figure out how to get the SIC Removed off the license is to take another checkride in a 501.

Ironically I’m currently legal single pilot in every 500 series except the 501 and 551. And yes, I still have SIC Required on my certificate.

Robert

Thought I'd quickly update this topic with what I've found - maybe it will be useful for others in the future.

Simulators
All the sim operators (Flight Safety, Simcom and a few others) have as their oldest model a Citation II or similar (550, 560). None of them will teach you or allow you to take the checkride as a single pilot and so your type will endorsed "second pilot required". You can then do the Single Pilot Exemption if you qualify (I don't). Cost for the initial - $16,000-$17,500.

In someone elses aircraft
If you don't have your own aircraft available, so far I've been able to find Arizona Type Ratings as the US option who will supply a Cessna 500. They quoted $22,500 for the type including 4 hours jet time.
There is also a flight training school in Sweden who will also do it for about 22,000 Euros but they seem targeted at professional student pilots and also bizarely think its a 6 week exercise in Stockholm to achieve.

In the wider 501 thread, somewhere in the middle there is a discussion about DPEs refusing to allow initial type ratings to not include a second pilot requirement even though there is no regulatory basis to do so (you did the ride in a single pilot aircraft so you should be able to fly it single pilot). I can confirm that ATR were up front that their DPE will discuss up front (on checkride day) your experience etc and may or may not let you fly single pilot. They said as a first type rating (in my case) it was unlikely although if they know you're going to do x mentor time first then maybe.

Your own aircraft
As above - except you'll have your own DPE and instructor and can agree if they will or won't let you fly single pilot after getting the type.

Removing the "second pilot required"
ATF will allow you to come to them and take another checkride. The above would apply - their examiner would need to satisfy themselves that they're happy to remove the requirement. This seems no different to using your own aircraft/instructor/DPE where a discussion needs to occur.

Path forward
So I'm still looking to do the type in North America (as the aircraft I'll likely fly is overseas) and I think I'll go down the path of
1. Sim school
2. Mentor hours
3. In aircraft check ride

1 and 3 could be swapped (with the sim then being recurrent and not initial) but my logic is that:
1. I will need to go to a sim school to get insured
2. Better to do the sim first when I have the time to learn how a 550 or similar works and fly it in the 2 crew environment.
3. Mentor hours will cover off the transition to flying single pilot
4. An in-aircraft check ride should be reasonably straight forward

Doing the sim as a recurrent would mean that my first exposure to a 550 and 2 crew would be in a more compressed timeframe/higher pressure environment.

My thanks to those who responded both in the thread and got in touch directly.

At first, I was surprised at this since a 501 owner couldn't get trained at those places. But the issue here, I think, is that the sim is a 550, a 2 pilot airplane, and there's no flying a crew airplane as single pilot for an initial. It could be some little regulatory glitch like that.


That won't help for a 501 or 551 pilot. SPE only works in crew airplanes.


My initial at Flight Safety (Atlanta) in early 2021 was $14.5K, so not to badly inflated since then.


Will they let you do the check ride single pilot? How does that work since the 500 is a crew airplane?


I have not run into this, but then I do not have a single pilot airplane.

I suggest this isn't that big a barrier. It is nice to fly crew first and get comfortable, then do a single pilot checkride after that to achieve your single pilot status. If you have 50-100 hours mentoring time, that can all be done as crew, as it should be. After that experience, you will be far better able to fly single pilot, so do a 61.58 recurrent single pilot and you are all set. This is basically what I did, crew initial followed by single pilot recurrent 6 months later. Maybe you can do sim crew initial and in aircraft recurrent to get both types of training.


I'm good with this. If you can't convince the DPE you are ready for single pilot jet flying, they should not give it to you. These programs don't fail enough pilots as it is in my view.


If you are going to do mentor time, you should train as crew first, then as your mentoring time nears and end, the mentor does less and less and then you do a single pilot recurrent. It isn't really that workable to have a mentor aboard and you fly single pilot. He doesn't know you and you don't know him, so knowing how a crew works is better. Given that, then, a crew initial works followed by a single pilot recurrent.


Insurance is going to force mentor time. You aren't flying single pilot for a while.


Looks good to me.

I would suggest getting SOME experience before going to sim school as an SIC. I and my sim buddy had ZERO jet experience when we showed up at Flight Safety and the first sim day was a total waste because of that. If you get even just a few hours of right seat time it will make your experience much better, IMO. You can even get an SIC type rating very easily and I have already done that for an SIC that flies with me. I'm happy to take green right seaters along and show them the ropes. I can also judge their readiness to be a jet pilot this way.


Perfect.


Get some SIC time. That will take the edge off your sim initial and you won't be so far behind.

Mike C.

I’m a bit curious about a point that was raised. How is it that DPEs can deny you single-pilot authorization? On other checkrides, say AMEL or instrument, if you meet the requirements and performed to the PTS, the DPE approves you. Do they in fact have discretionary authority to fail you just because they don’t think you should be granted the privileges of that rating?

Thanks in advance. I’m not in any danger of flying a Citation with or without a copilot, but I’m curious.

Me, too. it is a great question.

Mike C.

In the original Tarver 501SP thread (great reading if you have any interest in Citations), there is a section about mid-way where a few people recount experiences of DPEs only issuing types with "Second Pilot Required" - even though the aircraft flown is capable of being flown SP.

My takeaway from that thread was that the "Second Pilot Required" is needed for those who take the checkride in a two-crew required aircraft and so have not demonstrated that they're capable of flying a C500 series solo - if that wasn't included then you could train in a 2 pilot C550 (say) then go jump in a 501SP by yourself. The condition covers the DPE from the mess that the FAA have created by having a common type rating for a whole series some of which can be SP and some of which can't. In the C500 series (e.g. 550s) that require 2 crew it's irrelevant - it only affects anyone want to fly a 501SP or a 560.

Now - to get a type rating without the "second pilot required" you need to a) do the ride in a 501SP or a 560 AND b) demonstrate that you flew the aircraft solely by yourself - no second pilot assisting at all. DPEs are using this to cover their butts by giving the type but with the second pilot required coverage - presumably so they don't get sued when someone gets overconfident, decides to self insure and ...... I assume they justify this by finding at least one element of the test where the copilot gave some assistance "Clear Right" could be argued as taking part in the conduct of the flight.

I don't think it's against the rules - possibly unethical - and there are stories of pilots who only found out they weren't getting a SP type only after the checkride - so the caution is to talk to any DPE/school before you sign up for training/check ride.

I know for a fact this still happens today - I spoke to a school who were very up front with me and said that their DPE will discuss with you on the day your background and experience and tell you what they're prepared to grant - irrespective of who touches what controls. They all but said that if it's your first jet type (as mine would be) then there's almost no chance they'll give the rating without the second pilot required restriction.

Legal? Probably. Ethical - I guess if they're up front. Practical restriction - yes - but only in the sense that I'll be getting mentor hours anyway and my insurance company is not going to cover me until that's done - but then I'm forced to go and sit another checkride. I know there's an argument that it's good training - and it is - but I'd rather have more choice about how I spend my recurrent training bucket.

Until the FAA sort out the common type mess and split the SP Citations into their own type rating (which CJP were trying to make happen but it seems to have died off) then this will keep happening.

Other jurisdictions - Australia being my other interest - they actually have two type ratings - the CE500 series (Single Pilot) and the CE500 series (2 pilot). It probably achieves the same outcome for a new-to-jets pilot but at least its clear where you stand.

Thanks. That was at the heart of my question: If the airplane is a single-pilot airplane, and I meet the requirements, and I perform to the standard, why does the DPE have the discretion to issue me a SIC required type rating? That is essentially saying I failed the SP checkride. My background and experiences shouldn’t come into it as long as I meet the requirement as laid out in the regs.

I’m not disputing that this happens, and I understand that it’s not hard to remove the SIC restriction. I’m just trying to understand what gives the DPE that latitude, when in the case of other checkrides, it’s more cut-and-dried.