14 Mar 2025, 08:09 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501SP - Sim schools or aircraft for hire Posted: 22 Jan 2025, 01:05 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19727 Post Likes: +24845 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: 1. I will need a sim-based initial (or renewal) for insurance reasons You can get that at several places, Flightsafety, Loft, CAE, Simcom to name a few. The simulators won't be 501SP specific, but that doesn't matter. For example, the sim I used at Flightsafety was a 550. You then take a short difference course and you are all set with a type rating. If you take the checkride with crew, then you will have SIC required on your license. If you take the checkride solo, then you won't. Since you did it in the sim, you will need the 25 hours SOE (supervised operational experience). This is basically mentoring time. You are going to get at least that from the insurance company, so that's not a big deal. You need to find a mentor pilot to fly with you those hours. Quote: My research seems to indicate that there is no CE501 or CE551 simulator anywhere. You don't need a 501SP sim, nearly any CE-500 sim will work. The differences training is minimal. Quote: I've also read all the 501ISP thread and need to end up with the type rating not requiring a SIC. None of the sim schools I've tried seem to be able to offer that - either because it's too hard or they don't have the right simulator. You should be able to do the checkride single pilot and not have that. I'd also suggest there is value in doing a crew initial, then fly 25-50 hours with a mentor, then do a 61.58 single pilot in about 3 to 6 months. My path was a sim crew initial in a 550 sim, differences for a 560. Then I flew 50 hours with a mentor in my plane. Then I did the 61.58 single pilot recurrent about 6 months later (which is special for the 560, an exemption). That worked nicely. The mentoring hours are very valuable, don't dismiss them. Quote: 2. A flying school that has access to a 501ISP who will do my initial (then I go do a renewal at a sim school); There are some outfits that have access to planes for initials. You might be able to find this. There is another path. You could fly as SIC which has relatively light requirements. You can even get an SIC type rating from any CE-500 typed pilot (I have done that already for one person). You then fly as SIC for ~25 hours and you met your SOE requirement. Now go do a full sim type rating and single pilot checkride. You should not get the 25 hour SOE or SIC required on your type rating from what I understand. I'd be happy to have you SIC for me 25 hours, but you'd have to conform to my schedule which is likely problematic. It would take ~3 months for 25 hours. An SIC type rating would take a lot less, you need 3 takeoffs and landings, single engine maneuvering, and some CRM training, plus some ground school and that's all you need. Is this a US type rating or Canada? The regs you state seem US, but I wasn't sure. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501SP - Sim schools or aircraft for hire Posted: 22 Jan 2025, 15:05 |
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Joined: 11/24/11 Posts: 583 Post Likes: +636
Aircraft: PA31, PA32R
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Username Protected wrote: I saw in some other threads that there may be a path to removal of a 'second pilot required' for the 501 with 25 hours SOE and a trip to the FSDO? Has anyone had any success with that path? That trip to the FSDO will remove the SOE limitation from your pilot certificate. To remove a SIC-required limitation, you must take another checkride without an SIC.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501SP - Sim schools or aircraft for hire Posted: 22 Jan 2025, 15:46 |
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Joined: 11/24/11 Posts: 583 Post Likes: +636
Aircraft: PA31, PA32R
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Username Protected wrote: Sorry - being not very smart now - the difference between SOE and 'Second Pilot Required' is? How would I end up with one vs the other on my type? (assuming I did an initial at, say, Simcom).
Thanks Richard The SOE limitation (Supervised Operating Experience, your pilot certificate will say "subject to pilot in command limitations) is issued when it's your first jet type and you get the type in a simulator. If you get the type in the airplane, there will be no limitation. SOE requires 25 hours with a second pilot. It can be removed by presenting proof of the 25 hours to your FSDO. A SIC-required type rating (your certificate will say "second in command required") means that you took the checkride with a second pilot in the sim/airplane. You cannot ever operate the airplane single pilot until you take another checkride without a second pilot and receive a single-pilot type rating.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501SP - Sim schools or aircraft for hire Posted: 29 Jan 2025, 18:15 |
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Joined: 06/16/10 Posts: 144 Post Likes: +53 Location: Toronto, Canada
Aircraft: 601P
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Thought I'd quickly update this topic with what I've found - maybe it will be useful for others in the future.
Simulators All the sim operators (Flight Safety, Simcom and a few others) have as their oldest model a Citation II or similar (550, 560). None of them will teach you or allow you to take the checkride as a single pilot and so your type will endorsed "second pilot required". You can then do the Single Pilot Exemption if you qualify (I don't). Cost for the initial - $16,000-$17,500.
In someone elses aircraft If you don't have your own aircraft available, so far I've been able to find Arizona Type Ratings as the US option who will supply a Cessna 500. They quoted $22,500 for the type including 4 hours jet time. There is also a flight training school in Sweden who will also do it for about 22,000 Euros but they seem targeted at professional student pilots and also bizarely think its a 6 week exercise in Stockholm to achieve.
In the wider 501 thread, somewhere in the middle there is a discussion about DPEs refusing to allow initial type ratings to not include a second pilot requirement even though there is no regulatory basis to do so (you did the ride in a single pilot aircraft so you should be able to fly it single pilot). I can confirm that ATR were up front that their DPE will discuss up front (on checkride day) your experience etc and may or may not let you fly single pilot. They said as a first type rating (in my case) it was unlikely although if they know you're going to do x mentor time first then maybe.
Your own aircraft As above - except you'll have your own DPE and instructor and can agree if they will or won't let you fly single pilot after getting the type.
Removing the "second pilot required" ATF will allow you to come to them and take another checkride. The above would apply - their examiner would need to satisfy themselves that they're happy to remove the requirement. This seems no different to using your own aircraft/instructor/DPE where a discussion needs to occur.
Path forward So I'm still looking to do the type in North America (as the aircraft I'll likely fly is overseas) and I think I'll go down the path of 1. Sim school 2. Mentor hours 3. In aircraft check ride
1 and 3 could be swapped (with the sim then being recurrent and not initial) but my logic is that: 1. I will need to go to a sim school to get insured 2. Better to do the sim first when I have the time to learn how a 550 or similar works and fly it in the 2 crew environment. 3. Mentor hours will cover off the transition to flying single pilot 4. An in-aircraft check ride should be reasonably straight forward
Doing the sim as a recurrent would mean that my first exposure to a 550 and 2 crew would be in a more compressed timeframe/higher pressure environment.
My thanks to those who responded both in the thread and got in touch directly.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501SP - Sim schools or aircraft for hire Posted: 29 Jan 2025, 19:48 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19727 Post Likes: +24845 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: All the sim operators (Flight Safety, Simcom and a few others) have as their oldest model a Citation II or similar (550, 560). None of them will teach you or allow you to take the checkride as a single pilot and so your type will endorsed "second pilot required". At first, I was surprised at this since a 501 owner couldn't get trained at those places. But the issue here, I think, is that the sim is a 550, a 2 pilot airplane, and there's no flying a crew airplane as single pilot for an initial. It could be some little regulatory glitch like that. Quote: You can then do the Single Pilot Exemption if you qualify (I don't). That won't help for a 501 or 551 pilot. SPE only works in crew airplanes. Quote: Cost for the initial - $16,000-$17,500. My initial at Flight Safety (Atlanta) in early 2021 was $14.5K, so not to badly inflated since then. Quote: If you don't have your own aircraft available, so far I've been able to find Arizona Type Ratings as the US option who will supply a Cessna 500. They quoted $22,500 for the type including 4 hours jet time. Will they let you do the check ride single pilot? How does that work since the 500 is a crew airplane? Quote: In the wider 501 thread, somewhere in the middle there is a discussion about DPEs refusing to allow initial type ratings to not include a second pilot requirement even though there is no regulatory basis to do so I have not run into this, but then I do not have a single pilot airplane. I suggest this isn't that big a barrier. It is nice to fly crew first and get comfortable, then do a single pilot checkride after that to achieve your single pilot status. If you have 50-100 hours mentoring time, that can all be done as crew, as it should be. After that experience, you will be far better able to fly single pilot, so do a 61.58 recurrent single pilot and you are all set. This is basically what I did, crew initial followed by single pilot recurrent 6 months later. Maybe you can do sim crew initial and in aircraft recurrent to get both types of training. Quote: I can confirm that ATR were up front that their DPE will discuss up front (on checkride day) your experience etc and may or may not let you fly single pilot. I'm good with this. If you can't convince the DPE you are ready for single pilot jet flying, they should not give it to you. These programs don't fail enough pilots as it is in my view. Quote: They said as a first type rating (in my case) it was unlikely although if they know you're going to do x mentor time first then maybe. If you are going to do mentor time, you should train as crew first, then as your mentoring time nears and end, the mentor does less and less and then you do a single pilot recurrent. It isn't really that workable to have a mentor aboard and you fly single pilot. He doesn't know you and you don't know him, so knowing how a crew works is better. Given that, then, a crew initial works followed by a single pilot recurrent. Quote: Your own aircraft As above - except you'll have your own DPE and instructor and can agree if they will or won't let you fly single pilot after getting the type. Insurance is going to force mentor time. You aren't flying single pilot for a while. Quote: So I'm still looking to do the type in North America (as the aircraft I'll likely fly is overseas) and I think I'll go down the path of 1. Sim school 2. Mentor hours 3. In aircraft check ride Looks good to me. I would suggest getting SOME experience before going to sim school as an SIC. I and my sim buddy had ZERO jet experience when we showed up at Flight Safety and the first sim day was a total waste because of that. If you get even just a few hours of right seat time it will make your experience much better, IMO. You can even get an SIC type rating very easily and I have already done that for an SIC that flies with me. I'm happy to take green right seaters along and show them the ropes. I can also judge their readiness to be a jet pilot this way. Quote: 1 and 3 could be swapped (with the sim then being recurrent and not initial) but my logic is that: 1. I will need to go to a sim school to get insured 2. Better to do the sim first when I have the time to learn how a 550 or similar works and fly it in the 2 crew environment. 3. Mentor hours will cover off the transition to flying single pilot 4. An in-aircraft check ride should be reasonably straight forward Perfect. Quote: Doing the sim as a recurrent would mean that my first exposure to a 550 and 2 crew would be in a more compressed timeframe/higher pressure environment. Get some SIC time. That will take the edge off your sim initial and you won't be so far behind. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501SP - Sim schools or aircraft for hire Posted: 16 Feb 2025, 18:43 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19727 Post Likes: +24845 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I’m not in any danger of flying a Citation with or without a copilot, but I’m curious. Me, too. it is a great question. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501SP - Sim schools or aircraft for hire Posted: 19 Feb 2025, 11:47 |
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Joined: 03/01/15 Posts: 911 Post Likes: +884 Location: Hayward, CA
Aircraft: D50E
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Username Protected wrote: I know for a fact this still happens today - I spoke to a school who were very up front with me and said that their DPE will discuss with you on the day your background and experience and tell you what they're prepared to grant - irrespective of who touches what controls. They all but said that if it's your first jet type (as mine would be) then there's almost no chance they'll give the rating without the second pilot required restriction.
Thanks. That was at the heart of my question: If the airplane is a single-pilot airplane, and I meet the requirements, and I perform to the standard, why does the DPE have the discretion to issue me a SIC required type rating? That is essentially saying I failed the SP checkride. My background and experiences shouldn’t come into it as long as I meet the requirement as laid out in the regs. I’m not disputing that this happens, and I understand that it’s not hard to remove the SIC restriction. I’m just trying to understand what gives the DPE that latitude, when in the case of other checkrides, it’s more cut-and-dried.
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