27 Jun 2025, 14:00 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 14 Sep 2023, 10:14 |
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Joined: 03/02/12 Posts: 286 Post Likes: +257 Location: Birmingham, AL
Aircraft: B55 President 2
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The Greg's Airplanes videos are always a well researched treat to watch
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 14 Sep 2023, 10:49 |
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Joined: 03/17/08 Posts: 6506 Post Likes: +14332 Location: KMCW
Aircraft: B55 PII,F-1,L-2,OTW,
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The -H is an entirely different airplane. Different fuselage, different wing planform, different airfoil, and a different tail. It is like the difference between a Legacy Hornet and a Super Hornet. In that case, my understanding it, it was done so that they would not have to go through a selection process.
_________________ Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal MCW Be Nice, Kind, I don't care, be something, just don't be a jerk ;-)
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 14 Sep 2023, 15:07 |
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Joined: 04/06/11 Posts: 9208 Post Likes: +4842
Aircraft: Warbirds
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Amazingly the P-51 goes back to 1940 when the British ordered a prototype and it was constructed in about 120 days. Engineering had mostly already been done as NAA had been shopping the design to the US Army Air Corps who showed little interest. The airframe and wing changed little from 1940 through the P-51A (Allison V-1710 w/3 Blade Prop), B/C (Packard builr Rolls Royce V-1650 w/4 blade prop) and D/K (Bubble Canopy and inboard leading edge change as well as 2 more Machine Guns in the wings). The H came from R&D work going back to 1943. This was a few different prototypes based on lightning the airframe and higher horsepower Merlin variants. P-51J, G and F. In the late 1943 timeframe the USAAC decided Fighters needed more fuel. For the P-51B/C and D/K a fuselage Cell behind the Pilot was added for an additional 80 Gals. The Lightwweight P-51 Prototypes were all designed without this feature and some additional engineering was needed resulting in the P-51H. Closely related to the P-51J. The Packard Merlin V-1650-9 had Water Alcohol Injection and was rated to 2200 HP. The 1st Merlin's built by RR were barely 1000 HP. Quite a jump in about 8 years of use.
_________________ Be careful what you ask for, your mechanic wants to sleep at night.
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 14 Sep 2023, 16:31 |
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Joined: 04/06/11 Posts: 9208 Post Likes: +4842
Aircraft: Warbirds
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WWII Chart from Dec 1944 comparing late R-2800 P-47D, P-51H and the new XP-8A Jet. Both P-47D and P-51H equipped with Water Injection. P-51H at 70" MP is less than the 80-90" MP the engine was capable of. Attachment: Screen Shot 2023-09-14 at 4.24.20 PM.png This website offers many WWII Flight Testing Data for many of the Fighters used around the world. This is the data from USAAF testing of a P-51H to corroborate NAA Data. Links to Scans of original charts at the bottom of the page. http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... 64182.html
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 14 Sep 2023, 17:33 |
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Joined: 04/06/11 Posts: 9208 Post Likes: +4842
Aircraft: Warbirds
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From NAA Report revised after A/C flew and tested. At 70"+ of MP the engine is using more than 3 gal of fuel per minute. Image from Aircorpslibrary.com- Attachment: Screen Shot 2023-09-14 at 5.25.43 PM.png
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_________________ Be careful what you ask for, your mechanic wants to sleep at night.
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 14 Sep 2023, 20:30 |
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Joined: 07/13/19 Posts: 589 Post Likes: +708 Company: USAF and Polaris Program Location: FL
Aircraft: F-35A A-JET L39 A36
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Despite the performance differences, I think the D model (top) was a bit better looking.
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 14 Sep 2023, 21:19 |
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Joined: 04/06/11 Posts: 9208 Post Likes: +4842
Aircraft: Warbirds
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Username Protected wrote: Despite the performance differences, I think the D model (top) was a bit better looking. Top photo A/C is still airworthy. Was sent to NACA and became NACA 127, one of a fleet of NACA P-51s configured for High Speed Research with shaped alum plates over the gun bays and a tall tail. Airflow over the top of the wing would exceed MACH 1 at .75-.8 Mach. Shapes and test articles would be bolted to the upper wing and dives from high altitudes would be performed. The DG would be rotated 90 degrees and zeroed while level. Dives at 25 degrees nose down could be performed. Camera’s and instrumentation where installed. 2 other NACA P-51s are also flying today. Attachment: 684D8A34-E016-4AD6-93F9-CA433A2E1E70.jpeg
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_________________ Be careful what you ask for, your mechanic wants to sleep at night.
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 15 Sep 2023, 02:06 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2845 Post Likes: +2792 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: Lancair Evolution
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I talked to the owner of the world's only flying H-model at an airshow this summer. They made lots of non-performance improvements as well. The cowling is different, providing much better engine access, and that line in the way when accessing the spark plugs is gone. They put a lip on the canopy to stop the air leaks, and put in a Janitrol heater to keep the cockpit warm. It's clear the designers talked to many pilots and crew chiefs, not just aerodynamicists.
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 15 Sep 2023, 07:06 |
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Joined: 11/15/17 Posts: 1117 Post Likes: +580 Company: Cessna (retired)
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Interesting that the charts show a "combat rating" higher than a "war emergency rating." Never heard of that before.
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 15 Sep 2023, 07:55 |
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Joined: 06/25/10 Posts: 13185 Post Likes: +21095 Company: Summerland Key Airport Location: FD51
Aircraft: P35, GC1B
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Username Protected wrote: The -H is an entirely different airplane. Different fuselage, different wing planform, different airfoil, and a different tail. It is like the difference between a Legacy Hornet and a Super Hornet. In that case, my understanding it, it was done so that they would not have to go through a selection process. Navy: We need a stealthy 4+ Gen fighter, but we can't afford it. McDD/Boeing: Hold my beer. Without a doubt, the greatest hoodwink the Navy ever pulled on Congress.
_________________ Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. — Heinlein
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 15 Sep 2023, 08:05 |
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Joined: 04/06/11 Posts: 9208 Post Likes: +4842
Aircraft: Warbirds
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Username Protected wrote: Wikipedia says there are about 11 H models left of the 150 airworthy Mustangs in the world.
Great stuff.
Question, could you build a full size Mustang today if you had an *big* budget? Why are there no new replicas made? Maybe the stampings are the hard part?
--paul Some kind of link to an original serial number provides value that a homebuilt lacks. Several have tried setting up homebuilt type replica redo with no real success. In 07 2 Mustangs landing after displays at OSH hit at touchdown resulting in the loss of Gerry Beck and his P-51A which was registered as a homebuilt. So 1 has been built and flown. Big budget will get you a real one. Several outfits around the country can do that for you. One such is Aircorps Aviation. They took an airframe left abandoned in New Guinea and built it back to new, winning Grand Champion Warbird at OSH. They have done the same with several P-51s. Attachment: DF4EC17E-87C5-4C3E-8B64-670054D82739.png Attachment: AAAFB703-7596-4E0A-87CD-8CC4E92E23CD.png
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_________________ Be careful what you ask for, your mechanic wants to sleep at night.
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 15 Sep 2023, 08:11 |
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Joined: 04/06/11 Posts: 9208 Post Likes: +4842
Aircraft: Warbirds
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Username Protected wrote: Interesting that the charts show a "combat rating" higher than a "war emergency rating." Never heard of that before. Difference is the water injection. You could run 67” MP WEP dry, no ADI, which other Mustang models did as well with the high octane fuel. With ADI you could run 90” MP, combat power.
_________________ Be careful what you ask for, your mechanic wants to sleep at night.
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Post subject: Re: P-51; the H-Model is a Different Plane Posted: 15 Sep 2023, 13:37 |
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Joined: 12/08/12 Posts: 1238 Post Likes: +1628 Location: Ukiah, California
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Username Protected wrote: I talked to the owner of the world's only flying H-model at an airshow this summer. They made lots of non-performance improvements as well. The cowling is different, providing much better engine access, and that line in the way when accessing the spark plugs is gone. They put a lip on the canopy to stop the air leaks, and put in a Janitrol heater to keep the cockpit warm. It's clear the designers talked to many pilots and crew chiefs, not just aerodynamicists. Mike Coutches son or grandson I presume? Dan
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