Hello Beechtalk - this is my first post. My name is Seth and I own and operate a 1983 Mooney M20J Missile 300 out of KGAI in Maryland just outside Washington, DC. I owned a 1967 M20F Mooney prior, and reluctantly sold it deciding not to sink a lot of money into upgrades and have still a 1967 F model. I figured I'd own a faster newer air frame worth more for the same dollars - it was the right move. I have 1200+ hours now TT, a growing family, and fly both for pleasure and business.

The purpose of this post is as follows:

I am not a fan at recreating the wheel, but I do it all the time. I am requesting real world numbers, pro formas, and comparisons the members of Beechtalk have completed in the past. Please PM me and I'll respond with my email.

I have an opportunity through three similar shared firms and partners to purchase a business aircraft for use around the Mid-Atlantic region.

Need: Two individuals (not me) currently drive to Virginia beach from the Maryland suburbs northwest of Washington DC on a weekly basis. Down one day (four hour drive each way) and either back the next or late that night. There are also monthly drives to Richmond, VA, Lancaster, PA, Philadelphia, PA, NJ, and also trips via train to NYC. In the future, there will also be trips to Peoria, IL, Charleston, SC, Doylestown, PA, and Pittsburgh, PA. There may also be a few longer distance flights during the year, FL, Michigan, and TX. However, the longer flights we'll have no issue with a fuel stop if needed.

Minimum seats 6. More may be preferred. Pressurization is required. Most flights will be one or two passengers in the cabin. I very well may sit right seat on many of those flights before I am cleared to fly PIC. So that's 2-4 people including crew on most flights. At times, it very well could be more, but that would be rare.

I have flown some of these partners only one at a time each thus far on my Mooney for no compensation whatsoever and they all agree now it's time to have a personal time machine. One partner if he wants to dive in wants to go big - King Air 200/250 or King Air 300/350. Cabin Class and pressurization are required.

There is the perfect airplane to test the waters with as a first business owned airplane in a Cessna 414 RAM VII, completely rebuilt and modernized over the last seven years owned and operated professionally locally with a pilot I know well based at my airport. It's a turnkey operation with the same pilot noted until I can get trained up as the backup. The buy in is less than any other alternative. This is the only legacy piston twin I'm considering - all others are single engine turbine or turbine twin King Airs. If they don't want air travel after a while, or even if they decide to go big, the loss of selling the 414 at a loss would be minimal compared to a larger aircraft. The costs also increase with each more capable air frame. Both in up front capital costs as well as operational costs - this 414 is in great shape and nearly all systems have been replaced or overhauled during the last 7 years. Of course there will be unexpected repairs - I'm not going to kid myself, it's a 1976 straight 414.

I'm putting together a comparison spreadsheet as well as deep pro forma on the 414.

Here are the aircraft I'm looking at - all used (though maybe new for tax purposes in the future, but for now used):

414 RAM VII - about $575-$650 per hour all in. Not 414A, but a 1976 414 RAM VII.

PA-46 Meridian

TBM 850

PC-12

King Air 200/250

King Air 300/350

Please shoot me a PM if you have a pro-forma or other real world operating numbers on any these aircraft or any comparison. I'm also contacting NBAA for info tomorrow morning - I am a member.

I'd also like any real world stories and real world info anyone has anything to share.

I want to help my partners make a good decision. Of course I'd love a King Air 350, but I personally believe the rebuilt thus reliable and dispatch ready 414 is the best option today. In time a step up to a turbine seems inevitable. These are not small men - all 200+ lbs. I'm the smallest at 160 lbs. A fifth individual who would be on some of the trips is 290. This reall screams PC-12 or King Air B200. And that may be the perfect aicraft.

The cabin will make the difference in my opinion.

The 414 is larger on the inside than the Meridian.

The PC-12 and King are are larger than the 414.

How does the TBM staick up to the 414 cabin? I know the TBM is larger than the Meridian on the inside.

I plan to keep my Mooney Missile - the other airplane would be in addition. The reason the 414 is selling is because they are stepping up to a more capable airplane as their mission has expanded.

We may also explore how to tag along with the operator as a part owner of the turboprop airplane replacing the 414 as part of the new deal - we have not yet discussed that with my contact. For now, let's assume that will not occur.

Thanks!

-Seth

My general advice would be to skip the piston and go turbine.

Ditto.

You can find turboprops that operate at similar cost per mile as the 414, but with much higher speed and reliability.

A truly business airplane is turbine.

Mike C.

If you can afford a turbine ($1-3 million purchase, $600 ramp fees, $1k fillups) don't bother with the 414. It maybe dispatch ready now but it's a battle to keep it that way.

Do not buy a 414. I have given this advice to many Twin C shoppers. Those who don't take it often sell their 414 shortly after purchase.

If you must go piston for this mission, it must be a high-end 421C.

Considering the options and partners, I say go turbine.

Skip the piston and get a turbine.

Figure out the size and payload and $ you want to initially go for. None of the turbines on your list are bad planes to be avoided.

Welcome to BT.

If you want opinions, you came to the right place.

KGAI (Gaithersburg, MD) to (great circle, without regard to routing):

Present need:
KORF (Norfolk, VA): 144 nm
KRIC (Richmond, VA): 100 nm
KLNS (Lancaster, PA): 70 nm
KPNE (Philadelphia, PA): 114 nm

Future need:
KPIA (Peoria, IL): 585 nm
KCHS (Charleston, SC): 401 nm
KDYL (Doyleston, PA): 118 nm
KAGC (Pittsburgh, PA): 146 nm

Occasional need:
KORL (Orlando, FL): 669 nm
KLAN (Lansing, MI): 401 nm
KADS (Dallas, TX): 1024 nm

A lot of your flights are pretty short. Gaithersburg to Lancaster is about a 2 hour drive, which makes it borderline for flying to be faster, especially considering the DC area routing. On the other hand, there is the DC area road traffic which is horrible. Same comments about Richmond. The rest of the flights look like some time savings.

6 seats, pressurized, presumably known ice. Sounds like business travel with perhaps a schedule to keep. One partner requires cabin class.

The short leg mix suggests a jet is not indicated.


That makes it about $3.50/nm. You can be flying turbine for that, though perhaps not a King Air.

Why aren't the Cessna turboprop twins, 425 and 441, on your list?

If I was you, and cabin was a major factor, and you want to haul more than 6 people, MU2 Marquise. Nice big cabin, cheap to run, about 280-290 knots. It was, at one time a "Mooney MU2", if that helps.

My next suggestion would be 425 or 441. If the 414 cabin was acceptable, then these airplanes add speed and turbine reliability to that cabin. 441 is fast, 300 knots, and super long range if you ever need it.

If you got the cash to buy it, next suggestion is a PC-12. Big cabin, 270 knots, long range. High cost to get, reasonable cost to operate.

The King Airs are overpriced for what they are, but it sounds like a 200 would be the best fit. TBM and Meridian are too small for what you describe.

Might consider a B100, a King Air with TPE331. Bit off the beaten path, however.

Mike C.

Damn, I can't afford any of that.

But yet I have a turbine...

Hmmm.

I didn't pay anywhere near $1M.

I don't pay ramp fees hardly ever (buy fuel on contract cards).

I do occasionally put more than $1K in the tanks, though not in recent memory.

Mike C.

If you can stomach the capital cost, the PC12 would be my choice. Very easy to fly, good on short fields, cheap to operate, and holds its value very well. The large cargo door might be of use depending on what type of business you are in.

Damn, I can't afford any of that.

But yet I have a turbine...

Hmmm.

I didn't pay anywhere near $1M.

I don't pay ramp fees hardly ever (buy fuel on contract cards).

I do occasionally put more than $1K in the tanks, though not in recent memory.

Mike C.

Dr Robertson, you musta moved to a 'legalized state'

Seth,

I sent you a PM but I pretty much agree with everyone's comments here. Turbine: for sure. TBM/PA46: too small. Best overall bang for the buck: MU2 short body but pilot proficiency maybe more important than some of the other models especially for someone stepping up from pistons. KA200/350: will for sure do the job but probably most expensive to operate out of all and the 350 might be hard to step up to from pistons from insurance point of view. PC12: Best choice if buy in cost is no object. 441: Maybe more plane than you need, not that many for sale. 425: I think this might be the goldilocks plane for you mission. Easy to fly, pretty cheap to buy, has the space for your PAX, reasonable MX costs, many for sale right now.

Scott

The man expressed a preference for a ka200 class aircraft and needs to visit specific areas where he may not have much choice of airfield. That has easy potential for high expenses.


I'm all too aware of the contours of the most accessible turbine aircraft available (having concluded I can't afford one ). That's not what our poster is asking about.

Easy enough to get the real data. Call them and ask.

Flying a 414 won't get you dramatically less fees.

The worst airport on the list is KORF. Signature only, $6.08 fuel. Best you can do is buy the minimum to waive ramp fees. If you want, KONX is $3.27, so it may depend on exactly where you are going on the ground as to what you will pay. That part of the world is expensive and lacks airports to choose from.

In comparison, KRIC is $3.16. It just depends on competition at the local level.

Mike C.