Im helping out in the process of acquiring a PC12.

I know there is some PC12 owners on the forum that might be able to help out. Jason?!

We are looking at pre NG types only, as the limit is 2,5M$.

Aircraft we are looking at is serial series 5xx.

Is the pre NG versions a good investment?
Any differences in these models that are important. Cockpit equipment pro/cons etc?

A NG would of course be a better option, but a well kept older specimen is probably no bad investment either.

Is there any special items that should be looked into during the pre buy?


Espen

http://www.jetswiss.com

Call this guy. Don is a Pilatus expert and will steer you in the right direction.

I don't know much about pre-NG's. But all PC12's hold their value. My buddy bought a pre-NG, did all his training in it and sold it for more than he paid for it.

We have have NGs, a straight 47, and a straight 45. Let me know if I can help you with anything. The older ones are great. They have a higher workload because of less automation. The G500 upgrade is really nice. Not as nice as an NG but close.

Thanks guys.

Will study some more of the offers we have gotten the last days now, then compile some questions.
Kind of a big jump between knowledge on a Cessna and a PC-12

I know Don well. As a former Pilatus demo pilot and salesman, he's a great resource. I'd definitely second reaching out to him.

I know Don well. As a former Pilatus demo pilot and salesman, he's a great resource. I'd definitely second reaching out to him.

Espen,

The company I flew for used Chris Finnoff of http://www.finnoff.com/aircraft.html,
and picked up an ex Planesense PC-12/45 Series 10 with 5500TTSN for about 1.7 to 1.9 range.

Phil Greenspun does a very extensive review of the PC-12 series and answers your questions - Article here http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/pc-12/review.

Greg Allen of Epps did the pre-buy. First 2 years we averaged 400 hrs a year. 5 years later the aircraft now has 7200hrs and is coming up on second overhaul of the -65 engine.

The CEO loves the airplane and the utility and is electing to upgrade to the -67P engine and MT prop. He has said on many occasions, he loses no sleep over the Pilatus bills and is not looking to go to a Jet, as he is very happy with the numbers he sees.

Currently Chris, has an ex RCMP - PC-12/45 with 20,000hrs that has done the -67P upgrade and Factory service life extension 1 program that he's asking 2.5 for. The airframe has extension programs up to 50,000 hours.

http://www.finnoff.com/files/SN307_Specs.pdf - Under Contract.

I would recommend doing the Garmin G600 or IS&S Flat panel up grade, as the avionics on the pre NG airframes is the biggest headache. Honeywell has stopped manufacturing the display units and only rebuilds the remaining cores.

We were grounded for about 2 weeks waiting on Litef in Germany to release rebuilt AHRS units to US vendors as Masco and PilBAL where out of stock.

This is what we looked at in 2013 to upgrade s/n 420

1.First option replacing both Capt. & Copilot EFIS 40 units and Litef AHRS with Garmin G600 units.

2 x Garmin GDU 620 Displays
2 x Garmin GMU 44 Magnetometers
1 x Garmin GAD 43 Adapter
2 x Garmin GRS 77 AHRS
2 x Garmin GTP 59 Temp Probes
2 x Garmin GDC 74B Air Data Computers
Enablement cards for Over/Under Speed, altitude preselect,
TAWS B, ARINC 708 WXR, and ARINC 429 Rad Alt
All installation racks, connectors, brackets, trays, painted
instrument panels and placards.

2. Alternatively just replacing the Pilots EADI's and Keeping the Co-pilot side with the Honeywell EFIS 40 system and Litef AHRS

1 x Garmin GDU 620 Display
1 x Garmin GMU 44 Magnetometer
1 x Garmin GAD 43 Adapter
1 x Garmin GRS 77 AHRS
1 x Garmin GTP 59 Temp Probe
1 x Garmin GDC 74 Air Data Computer
Enablement cards for Over/Under Speed, altitude preselect,
TAWS B, ARINC 708 WXR, and ARINC 429 Rad Alt
All installation racks, connectors, brackets, trays, painted
instrument panels and placards.

Coupling units to Garmin GTN 625.

The G600 upgrade has a recommended installed price of $179,000.00 from Pilatus. This was based on an original labor estimate of 300-350 man hours. However, field experience has shown that many shops have encountered difficulties with magnetic interference in the wing mounting locations for the magnetometers. This has resulted in the necessity to rewire the nav/strobe/recog lights with extra shielded wiring to overcome this serious issue. This price also does not include the installation of dual Garmin WAAS devices.

A PC-12 center in the Lower states came back with $243,000 for the Garmin upgrade, as even with dual batteries, one still has to put the Emergency Power supply for the new Digital Standby Attitude.

Get the Honeywell warranty if you don't upgrade to Garmin or IS&S avionics. A blown EFIS is about was $18,000 each to replace in 2013. Buy in for the warranty about that per year.

One year, we replaced 3 units right after coming out of annual. They didn't like the GPU being used in MTC hangar and quit on first post acceptance startup..........spent a week sourcing new units, Jack Shields of Atlas / Alpha Fying and Chris Finnoff went above and beyond in helping to source parts from PilBal / Litef / Masco and Honeywell.

A Series 10 or later with the revised panel and dual batteries has a better panel flow. s/n 401 and up to 5XX before the 47 change over.

I wouldn't go below a 2001/02 model year, based on the ergonomics of the older panel series 9 and lower.

Hope this helps; for the money find one that has had the upgrades done or pay $$$$ for the warranties ..... IHAPP is your friend.

Regards,
Nigel

Nigel,

That is awesome information.
Really the sort of information I was seeking.

The client put in a low bid on the 5xx we are considering today.
We have also calculated in about 100'$ for a avionics upgrade.
That hopefully should cover exchanging 2 530's with 750's, FS210, GDL88.
We are considering keeping the EFIS 40 for now, but we will have to discuss this closer with the future owner. We already have a /45 at or local field with the EFIS and I think all the rated pilots will end up flying both aircrafts. So we have to take this into the consideration too.
Our initial 2,5M$ budget should give some room for upgrades.

Engine only have 400hrs left, so there will be a even bigger bill in a couple of years too.

Trying to keep the unpleasant future surprises down to a minimum, but after speaking to a 7000hr PC12 pilot today it seems that this a pretty rigid robust aircraft.
However avionics can take on a life of itself sometimes.
So extendd warranty seems like a good idea if staying with the 40.


Espen

Espen,

You won't go wrong with a PC12. A very capable and reliable machine. We just passed 5million fleet hours adding up at the rate of 500,000/year and it has been over 2 years since the last fatal accident. The PC12 has an exceptional record among turboprops - the only one that beats it is the is the KA350 - which requires a type. Pro Pilot magazine ranked Pilatus as the best customer service provider for turbo props.

As Nigel said - keep the Honeywell warranty up to date and consider a panel replacement (then you can drop the warranty). Honeywell prices are jaw dropping. It also allows your service center to swap parts in order to find an intermittent issues without having to pay for the parts that didn't fix the problem.

I believe the /47s are the best value (and I own a NG). The /47s have a 500# gross weight increase along with the flettner tabs on the ailerons for lighter roll control. Only 110 /47 serial numbers so they are harder to find and will push your budget. We made a few offers on some /47s but those go in days and even hours after they are on the market.

I would recommend a Pilatus service center to do your pre-buy.

Pay attention to the 10 year wing inspection - that's $22K minimum assuming everything is 'clean'

I've heard of 'real world' PT6-67B overhaul cost running 400-500K instead of the 300k that you see published in all the guides. Depends on if the aircraft lived it's life in a corrosive environment or not. Make sure you do a borescope and check for inlet corrosion - a common problem with PC12s before SN1350 or so - technically all PT6-67Bs (legacy engines) had the magnesium inlet case and some PT6-67Ps (NG engines) - Pratt stopped using the magnesium inlet in the -67P with serial number PCE-RY0457. From my understanding, all the -67 engines can be upgraded at overhaul to the aluminum alloy inlet case.

10 seat configurations bring premium prices and are more liquid in the market when it comes time to sell. It's not as simple as adding 2 more seats - there is a larger O2 bottle and O2 plumbed for the 9th and 10th seat. It's a 80K retrofit.

There are several advantages to going with an NG if they are up for the additional capital. 10 more knots of cruise speed, two temperature zones (cockpit/cabin), and the Honeywell Apex. Pilatus had a lot of growing pains with the NGs and Honeywell but those are all worked out now - a very reliable and capable system.

We have had zero unscheduled downtime aside from a lightening strike. We do 150 hour and annual inspections. The 150hour isn't required for part 91 but recommended.

Here is a log of the changes in serial numbers and series.
http://jetav.com/pilatus-pc-12-part-two-development/

Thanks,
Brent

We now offer affordable Garmin Glass upgrades for the PC-12.

Thats just an awesome upgrade?

Anyway.
The client somewhat reconsidered.
We are now sniffing at the NG as well.

Anyone know any NG's that might come up for sale that are not already listed online?

It's let up the last few months; but prior to that, I received at least one call or letter per month for someone looking to purchase our NG. Some were just brokers fishing but others had a signed letter from the prospective buyer. There is less than 4% of the NG fleet currently for sale. My point is that it's a seller's market so if you find one that you like, I wouldn't mess around with trying to bottom fish or you are wasting time.

With that said, this one is well equipped (with most of the NG options) has been on the market for a while; if you can get over the paint - the only one I've seen sit very long. http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/PILATUS-PC-12-NG/2008-PILATUS-PC-12-NG/1374343.htm

Don't buy an NG without the CCD (Cursor Control Device). It's baffling to me that they would let one out of the factory hangar without it!

I don't think there are any that don't have it at this point. Yes, avionics are impossible without it.

I hated APEX when I first got my PC12. They've really come to the table and gotten it all fixed. It works great now. I'm happy with it.