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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 24 Oct 2023, 17:36 
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I’d be pretty happy flying around in SF50, comfortable and pressurized. I just don’t have millions of dollars of places I need to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 24 Oct 2023, 17:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
I still find the irony that the biggest proponent for years on BT about the magic of 300kts trashed the performance of a plane that does exactly that.

Because they built a plane that had the potential to go nearly 400 knots and arbitrarily limited it to 300 knots (and put it in more weather and icing) with stupid decisions.

They built a very compromised plane in a way that doesn't provide value.

Mike C.


Didn't your momma ever tell you to not call people's babies ugly!
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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 24 Oct 2023, 18:03 
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Joined: 07/14/17
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Company: Finch Industries,Inc.
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There are 2 products that are selling very well in GA and that is the Vision Jet and SETPs.


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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 24 Oct 2023, 18:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
Crash talk begs to differ, it's littered with jets crashing...and depressurizing...and skidding off the runway...

None of which was due to having two engines.

What you don't hear about is a jet crashing because an engine failed, for which the SF50 has already had at least one such accident.

The point is that avoiding a twin jet because piston twins have engine failure accidents is misguided.

Mike C.

Anyone ever die because a thrust reverser deployed in the air?

Chip-

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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 24 Oct 2023, 22:48 
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There are 2 products that are selling very well in GA and that is the Vision Jet and SETPs.

I would add in the piston Cirrus as well. Our ramp at the Van Nuys Prop Park is littered with them, not to mention those in hangars.

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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2023, 09:20 
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Location: Savannah, GA (KSAV)
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Great discussion here.

I have an Eclipse 500 type and flew it about 150hrs for a principal that owned it and a Beechjet. I do not have any SF50 experience.

I loved the Eclipse. From a pilot perspective, It sipped gas up high (280pph total at LRC at FL410), was relatively fast, easy to fly, and really easy to operate once you understood the proprietary avionics. While it is a multiengine airplane, the two engines are so small and close together that it has no VMC, and it was very easy to fly on one engine, albeit a bit underpowered with such little total thrust. You had to be much more cognizant of your weight and performance limitations for hot/high departures than higher-thrust airplanes, but it was manageable. As an earlier commenter mentioned, it was really hindered by ops that kept you low or on the ground for awhile, with only 1450lb fuel total with tanks full and two fuel burners, the best profile was a quick taxi, takeoff, and climb up to the thin air where it excelled. The best summary I heard while flying it was that it was basically a Baron that could go to 410- a comfortable, easy to fly airplane that has a sweet spot for owners that need to take 1-4 people (or 1-3 people + a pro pilot) 300-900NM.

Since I only flew it as a hired pilot, I have a less-clear picture of the ownership experience, but can gather from talking with owners & reading the Eclipse Pilot forum that it's been a rather checkered experience for all the reasons we're familiar with from following the eclipse story: stop-start OEM support, overpromising/underdelivering at the beginning of the project, and less of the social focus that has been spoken about with the Cirrus group. Since many of them are now 15yo airplanes, they are at a different stage of their product development lifecycle than SF50's and parts and support can be a challenge, although there is a small and dedicated ecosystem that continues to support them. I wonder if it will be different for the SF50 10-15y from now.

So in a fictitious world where you could cross-shop a new Eclipse 500 with a new SF50 I think the Eclipse would be the better airplane overall with better performance, redundancy and fuel burn, but that's not a decision that the market faces. The SF50 is the new hot thing, it's selling well, and I respect that.

Again, I don't have any firsthand SF50 experience, but a brand new jet with a roomier cabin and standard Garmin avionics seems really compelling, I can see why even an experienced, qualified, owner/pilot-savvy would-be EA500 owner would still choose it over an old Eclipse if they had the finances to cover it and were interested in a more turnkey experience. It's clearly been a successful product for Cirrus and they are doing a good job of managing and developing their customer base. And hat-tip for making the V-tail cool again.

Market-wise it might seem silly that 500 of these "slow, inefficient, less-robust single engine jets" have been sold, but there's clearly a niche for it. Toyota sells the hot-hatch GR Corolla for the same base price as a Highlander. The GR Corolla might seem like a dumb little impractical car compared to the Highlander, but it too clearly has a market niche.

It will be interesting to see if Cirrus will develop the SF50 into a multi to move up with their customers as they progress in their capabilities & desires. Sooner or later the secret might get out that it's not that hard to get an AMEL, & if you add a second engine, you can ditch the weight of a chute, fly higher, go faster, and use less fuel overall while enjoying added redundancy.


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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2023, 09:29 
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Wow, 280pph total and not per side? What speeds are we talking here?

Chip-


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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2023, 09:53 
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Location: Savannah, GA (KSAV)
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Around 300 KTAS. I couldn't find a photo showing as low as 140PPH/side but here's as good as I have. They are impressive little machines!

Sorry for the thread drift. Hopefully an SF50 driver can come on here and talk real-world vision jet performance


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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2023, 10:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
There are 2 products that are selling very well in GA and that is the Vision Jet and SETPs.


The market is smart. Interesting to look at the numbers, in the owner flown category. The SF50 and SETP's are definitely where the market is going.

In order of sales the last 4 quarters. (Combining Q3/4 2022, and Q1/2 2023). The single turbines are leading the pack. And the safety of those single turbines are exceptional. Much below the GA average rate of fatal accidents. So the safety factor doesn't hold much weight. Better high/hot/short contaminated performance for the turboprops. More advanced avionics for the M600/TBM/SF50 with full envelope protection, autoland, GWX8000 3D volumetric radar, automatic remote trend monitoring, remote database updates, ability to check the status of your airplanes systems, such as battery health, fuel onboard, etc, from an app on your phone at home. The operating costs are less, the ease of flying is greater with fewer complex systems, and outside of the SF50, no need for type ratings. Easier to insure, especially for older less experienced pilots. A lot of reasons that go into the single turbines dominating the owner flown market.

Vision SF50 104
TBM 910/960 72
Piper M500/600 52
Cessna M2 28
Honda Jet 17
Epic 16
Phenom 100 7

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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2023, 10:46 
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Joined: 10/15/17
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Username Protected wrote:
I just went down the friction stir welding rabbit hole on youtube - bummer it didn't work out for Eclipse but pretty cool ingenuity.

Chip-

It hasn't completely "not worked out".. they were definitely pioneers in the FSW field.

Here's some more rabbit hole for you :)

https://www.pnnl.gov/friction-stir-welding-processing


Probably too many irons in the fire for Eclipse trying to get cute with manufacturing processes and new avionics on a clean sheet design. With all that said, it's a nice little jet.


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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2023, 10:52 
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I do find the comments about only doing 300 knots, being too slow, on a forum made up of mostly aircraft that can only dream of doing 300, rather funny.
As I look at buying a Bonanza, a plane that will never see 200, 300 is like a dream to me.
I don't want to go faster than 300, because for me the trip is usually more enjoyable than the destination.
Sure I fly to places on vacation, but even then I love seeing the sights along the way.
But other times am going for business, and by far the best part is the flight, why rush it.

Maybe I am weird, but if I owned a Vision, would somedays likely be flying along in it at 3000'agl, while doing 150 kts, just enjoying the flight and view.
It's not always about how fast can I get there.
If that was the only criteria, Bonanza, Baron, etc are poor choices, they really don't go very fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2023, 10:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
Maybe I am weird, but if I owned a Vision, would somedays likely be flying along in it at 3000'agl, while doing 150 kts, just enjoying the flight and view.
It's not always about how fast can I get there.


I flew 280nm at 3500ft (around 2500-3000 AGL) in king air with throttles at about 50%

Was a very fun flight to do at dusk/night, given all the time I've spent in single engine piston planes, didn't have any engine concerns and fuel flow was the same as cruise altitude with throttles pulled back, trip difference was about 12mins


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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2023, 11:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
Around 300 KTAS. I couldn't find a photo showing as low as 140PPH/side but here's as good as I have. They are impressive little machines!

Sorry for the thread drift. Hopefully an SF50 driver can come on here and talk real-world vision jet performance

I think Ted's right... been a while but even down low at FL280 (pictured) it wasn't more than 600pph total at this speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2023, 12:21 
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The range just quotes for eclipse is the same as SF50 by the way.

Real world, both are sub 1000 miles planes.

Also, note the speed at fl410. It’s not 370! Go fast or far, pick one. Story of most small turbines with limited fuel tanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Celebrating the 500th Vision Jet
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2023, 12:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
The range just quotes for eclipse is the same as SF50 by the way.

Eclipse uses less fuel, flies higher, and goes faster to do it.

SF50 is 296 gallons, EA500 is 248 gallons usable. Subtract reserves, the EA500 is using 20-25% less fuel for the same trip.

Even at low altitudes, the EA500 throttled back to SF50 speeds uses less fuel.

The idea twins use more fuel is piston think.

Quote:
Also, note the speed at fl410. It’s not 370!

Right, the EA500 in the long range cruise mode is as fast as the SF50 is in the fast mode.

Quote:
Go fast or far, pick one.

SF50 has only go slow choice.

Mike C.

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