I was thinking about how Pratt doesn't allow the engines to get an HSI at TBO but they will let fleet operators extend their TBO to 4500...I know this is true for all kinds of engines and 121/135 operations around the world but I thought it was funny in this case. I love getting told that my engine will instantly explode if I operate over TBO and then some fleet operator in Austria can operate to 4500 without anything happening. I know the caveats...don't hate the player hate the game blah blah blah...but at lease just come out and say "Hey Mr. Part 91 guy...we are deliberately targeting you because we want you on our programs." Sorry I will get off my soapbox.

It’s all about the Benjamins!

Some folks seem to be forgetting about the genesis of these engine programs. Super expensive repair bills and general unreliability for 731’s, for example, made the program pitch a way to build confidence in the engines. It worked for Honeywell and it seemed to represent a decent value overall for many years until the lawyers took over.

Fast forward 40 years or so and engine support is a cradle to grave cash cow where the OEM holds the IP and controls everything. But they still break. If you’re off program, you better be lucky. Last week a client called seeking help on a $400k bill for an engine issue. No problem, I said, we negotiated the discount on the plane and set aside the enrollment money for the top program, sent the contract, and everything is covered. Wrong. They kept the money and rejected the program upgrade. Mmmkay.

Not everyday, but I see this often enough to say I wouldn’t own a modern jet without a program. Getting a $400k surprise bill takes a fair bit of fun out of owning a light jet. And trying to sell one off program is just about as much fun. No thanks.

Someone once said something here along the lines of; “if a $100k surprise bill won’t hurt your lifestyle, buy a single, if it’s $200k, buy a twin, and if it’s $500k, but a turbine” or something like that. Good advice.

ESP will tell you they can not only save money overall but also offer insurance in between events. And they control it, so why be on the outside looking in? And JSSI has been top notch for me too. Fantastic and customer focused service in my experience with many planes.

Sounds like a good reason not to get a "modern" jet. Thankfully, I didn't, and I have choices.


Sending in a minimum of $75K in program payments per year isn't fun, either, nor having to pay for hours you didn't use due to not making minimums hours per year.

If you take the program payments and stick them into an SP500 ETF, it won't take very long to grow a very healthy cash reserve to deal with the unscheduled events. The 16 years of Williams payments, totaling $800K, grew to over $2M in value for 2400 hours of use. That's more than the market value of the airplane in some cases.

Programs reduce anxiety, but you pay for them dearly. Having $2M extra dollars is also a good anxiety reducer, too.

Mike C.

Sounds like a good reason not to get a "modern" jet. Thankfully, I didn't, and I have choices.


Sending in a minimum of $75K in program payments per year isn't fun, either, nor having to pay for hours you didn't use due to not making minimums hours per year.

If you take the program payments and stick them into an SP500 ETF, it won't take very long to grow a very healthy cash reserve to deal with the unscheduled events. The 16 years of Williams payments, totaling $800K, grew to over $2M in value for 2400 hours of use. That's more than the market value of the airplane in some cases.

Programs reduce anxiety, but you pay for them dearly. Having $2M extra dollars is also a good anxiety reducer, too.

Mike C.

That is a lot of money. If one does have the discipline to invest that money would be a no brainer to self insure. But then the OEM’s punish you by making you pay above market for repairs, which is complete extortion. Makes the high performance turboprops seem even more attractive. Fortunately the SETP OEM’s haven’t taken that route. Pratt does offer a plan for some of the SETPs. Just no way to make the math look attractive, so very few do it.

If the OEM is the only market for engine work, then they can't, by definition, charge you above market. They ARE the market.

The business people at OEMs realized over the years that FAA regulations gave them the power to capture operators for major engine work. They then manipulated the situation so that is the case. PT6 and JT15D had choices. PW500, PW600 don't. That's milking the owners of those newer engines.


That's mostly because the turboprops have had few new engines in the last few decades, few new clean sheet designs.

The GE Catalyst n the Denali is about the only new engine in recent times. I wonder what the service strategy will be for that one, will it be captured like recent jet engines? Too early to tell, but I predict it will be OEM locked for major engine service. I'd be shocked if that wasn't part of the business plan.

For the OEM locked engines, there is no particular market force that causes them to be restrained on the price increases. Owners have to pay. The recent run up at Williams is an example of this. It is an extortion racket. That is a nice set of engines you have there, sure would be a shame if something happened to them. Engine OEMs are going to make more money on each plane than the airframe OEM did.


Basically, it boils down to one simple fact: if you have choice for major engine work, you aren't on a program generally, because the program is too expensive.

It has gotten to the point that on some of these engines, you spend more for the engine program than you do for fuel.

Mike C.

Don’t get too warm and fuzzy… we have a -67 at Pratt right now for a PC-12 we recently acquired, first run -67 and the bill is currently $1.1M

There are outside contractors who will represent the SETP owners and their engines when they have an event or arrive at HSI or OH. Engine experts. Interview well in advance of your need and make sure they are involved before engine pulled or shipped to Pratt or an independent shop for the work. This is almost the only way to have a chance to not overpay for the work. Best to all SETP owners.

Ben Marcus and Cyrus Sigari were the 2 founders of Jet Aviva. I am acquainted with both of them - good guys who started the business with focus on transition training/mentoring new Mustang pilots.

To put that in context, you need to state which shop is doing the work.

The big block PT6 are expensive.

Mike C.

To put that in context, you need to state which shop is doing the work.

The big block PT6 are expensive.

Mike C.

From the cost, it seemed like that was the case.

Pratt has no incentive to make the process less expensive.

An independent shop might have other options such as used parts, PMA parts, repair services on parts, etc.

Mike C.

Don’t get too warm and fuzzy… we have a -67 at Pratt right now for a PC-12 we recently acquired, first run -67 and the bill is currently $1.1M

From the cost, it seemed like that was the case.

Pratt has no incentive to make the process less expensive.

An independent shop might have other options such as used parts, PMA parts, repair services on parts, etc.

Mike C.