Bruce:

I agree with all that you said, and I think all memory items should be:

1. Fly the airplane and keep it doing what you want it to do (don’t let it drive you).
2. Get your O2 mask on (so I can continue breathing).

Once I have it going where I want, and have my mask on, most/all other things can be done for a well thought out checklist.

But what do I know, I’m just a pilot.

Brad

OK, major, or maybe minor, thread drift here.

Anyone out there typed in both the Citation series and the Phenom 300?
Would be interesting to hear about difference in handling characteristics, especially
single engine ops, either in aircraft or in sim.

Will apologize in advance, but since someone brought up the 300, "being a handful" for a single pilot in certain situations.

Any idea what the washout rate is on type rating for the Phenom 100 vs the Phenom 300?

Any idea what the washout rate is on type rating for the Phenom 100 vs the Phenom 300?

Looks a lot sexier than a Slotation

My buddy Todd Jackson did the acquisition of that aircraft, it is a sexy beast!!

These must be "alternative facts" that my plane is poorly maintained and under engineered and a death trap.

There isn't much that is unknown or hidden about a legacy Citation, it has been thoroughly tested and it was well engineered.

When the modern jets are busy clearing their FADEC faults, or can't land on some runway due to lacking TRs, or have some weird software glitch, I'll happily go flying in my older, simpler, jet.

As to me having special knowledge, you don't get away from that with a new airplane. The last person I helped on CJP was an M2 owner who had a hydraulic pump go bad and was AOG waiting for the factory to receive new ones in weeks or months. I found him one at a salvage yard. Saved him buckets of money, too.

Just because you have a new airplane doesn't mean you don't have problems. Ask 525 owners about intercoolers, CJ4 owners about windshield frame corrosion, or outflow valves, or a host of other things. New often means "latent bugs" as the CJ4 windshield fiasco shows. 525 owners are still complaining about known software bugs, like the false G3000 avionics overtemp bug.

The word "AOG" appears 900 times in the 510 and 525 topics on CJP. It appears 121 times in the legacy 500 topic. Something to think about.

Mike C.

That's nonsense.

Don't let others create some mythology around what I do, it isn't that complicated or hard.

For example:

In my recent phase 1-5, mechanic finds a crack in my RH lower TR bucket. It is caused by an old repair done badly which caused a stress concentration.

My options are:

1. Do another field repair.

2. Buy the cracked angle and replace it on the bucket.

3. Find a used TR bucket.

I decide against another field repair, unlikely to be a good long term solution, just moves the crack point somewhere else. The angle has a PN, but there's no stock anywhere and the labor to unrivet the old and rivet in the new isn't trivial. So my options quickly converge to finding a serviceable used bucket. I'm slightly concerned those may be rare, but it turns out they are not. My 4 buckets are all original after 10,000 hours, so apparently they don't break all that often in the field.

I send email to my salvage folks and I get back 3 replies within hours. BAS has two, Yingling has two, and Atlanta Air Salvage has one. Prices vary from $5K to $13K. Yingling says they price match, so I pick one of theirs and buy it for $5K (it was off an Ultra). It arrives, mechanic inspects it, finds it in good shape, and it is on the plane in an about 2 hours and fits nicely. Now I don't have a TR bucket with a field repair any more, which feels better than what I had.

My total time invested was about 1 hour in the whole transaction. Any idiot who can write email can do it, though I admit some idiots can't write email.

This is not magic, just simple stuff. Crack in part, look up PN, send email to salvage yards, choose which one to buy, have it shipped. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be an airplane owner.

The TR crack was my largest finding in my phase 1-5 inspection. After 6 years, there wasn't a lot of squawks. These planes are well built.

I do still have the cracked TR bucket. Maybe it is worth something, don't know. There are shops who repair these things, so maybe I will sell it to them someday, but I haven't contacted them yet. So maybe I'm out less than $5K eventually.

The ecosystem around the legacy airplanes is much larger and more diverse than it is for the new airplanes. This gives you choices and choices result in far lower costs and less downtime.

Mike C.

That could be because 510s and 525s are 7.44x as likely as Legacy 500s to be AOG.

It could also be because there are 7.44x as many 510 and 525 operators posting
on CJP as there are Legacy 500 guys.

Also if there are more 510 and 525 guys posting on CJP, just the number of posters and posts may influence the # of times that ÄOG appears, aside from the number of incidents.

Not saying our are right or wrong, just that the data need to be normalized to provide any insight.

Put the mask on first.

I don't care what the emergency is, putting on the mask first is good practice. If you didn't need to, it was harmless. If you did need to, it was critical.

Time of useful consciousness at FL450 is just a few seconds. 85% of the atmosphere is below you. Stepping outside the airlock on the ISS is only 15% worse.

Mike C.

Could be, but then that means the older airplanes have an equal AOG chance, if that is the actual ratio. I am pretty sure the 510 + 525 guys don't out number the legacy guys by that ratio. It is likely around 4 to 1.

I think it really comes from the supply problems the new airplanes have for parts that the older airplanes don't. The older airplanes might break more often, but we have mor readily available parts and aren't AOG for weeks, months waiting on things like intercoolers, hydraulic pumps, etc. The guys with newer airplanes suffer those supply problems more and post about it more.

I've never had any downtime extended by a part supply problem. Obviously it could happen, but there is so much used inventory of everything for my plane that it is unlikely.

Mike C.

Mike - you severely underestimate how much most people (read:non engineer or technical types) like dealing with mechanical things and failures.

The majority of people I know who fly would not want to flow through your thrust reverser decision tree. It’s not a financial question. They just don’t have the competitive, confidence, desire, knowledge etc. etc to do so.

Safety wise, the record would say a legacy citation is less safe than a p300. Just looking at the last 5 years that is definitely the case. If I was a non-pilot shopping there is zero chance I buy an old citation over a p300 of money is not an issue.

Same reason I cannot believe newer king airs are even for sale when pc12 record is so much better.

That clicking sound you just heard was the buckle on my flame suit

A good pilot should be fine. Much more of a challenge was getting on the schedule in the first place. At least when I flying the P300 a few years ago, CAE was a year out to schedule an initial training, but not washing out a bunch of pilots. And, on the schedule, heaven forbid you might need to reschedule! Scheduling training is a b&tch, which in my mind undercuts a lot of the capability of the aircraft once you have to amortize the inflexibility and length of training into the picture.

To clarify my earlier comments, I wasn't trying to say that the Phenom's controls are unsafe. They are just mushily connected to the airframe. Despite the capabilities of the plane, it felt more like a minivan than a sports car to fly. I felt the same way about the PC-12.

Put the mask on first.

I don't care what the emergency is, putting on the mask first is good practice. If you didn't need to, it was harmless. If you did need to, it was critical.

Time of useful consciousness at FL450 is just a few seconds. 85% of the atmosphere is below you. Stepping outside the airlock on the ISS is only 15% worse.

Mike C.