I have a friend who had a 441 with -10's for several years. Rode in it a couple times. Really impressive plane all around.

He sold it and got a CJ in large part due to availability of pilots who met insurance requirements. Not a lot of pilots with time in 441's looking for hire, in the midwest at least. Had to talk one into coming out of retirement to mentor another pilot until he met the minimum time in type.

Not an issue for a qualified owner-pilot, but if you plan to hire a mentor pilot for a while, it might be something to sort out before you close on the plane. There just aren't a lot flying around any more and the guys who used to fly them have mostly retired, or are senior captains at the airlines.

That's going to be true for Commanders, MU2, Merlins, Conquests, Cheyennes, and even the B100 King Air.

If you want to hire pilots, PT6 King Air and Citation will be your best bet.

That factored into my decision to get a Citation, though I have made no use of contract pilots outside my mentoring period.

Another area this shows up is in training choices. Lots of options for Citations and King Airs, not so much for the others.

Mike C.

I have heard others say that, but no one has detailed what those more complex systems are.

What makes the 441 more complex to maintain, exactly? Just curious.

Mike C.

Wasn't aware the 425 had no air cycle machine. In any case, MU2, Commander, 441, Citations, all have basically the same ACM and it can be made to work pretty well.


This must be like the Citation, then, with plex windshield and bleed air heat.

This sort of implies the 425 has a glass heated windshield. In the long run, the bleed air one will be cheaper to own as those glass windshields are much $$$ and basically unfixable when they break. The bleed air heat isn't very complex and can be fixed in the field.


That is unique to the 441.


Every TPE331 has this and its not complicated in itself. Just pumps the prop out of feather for an airstart.


Understood.

Between Commander and 441, the only thing that is different is the EFCU. The Commander makes up for that with the nose gear gimmickry and other things.

The entry/egress from a Commander is nicer than a 441, have to admit that, but don't ever do it with the left engine running!

Mike C.

Here is unfeathering pump story.

Prior to the 441 first flight, the experimental mechanics wanted to get the props off the start locks, and either the unfeathering pump was not operational yet or they did not know how to use it.

An experimental department supervisor drove out the start lock pins with a punch and hammer, and messed up his hand pretty bad when it got caught between a counterwieght and the spinner bulkhead.

Dumbass.

They are things called prop paddles which would have done this easily. They are basically levers around the prop blade so you can twist the blade towards reverse and slide the pins out easily. The prop paddle is cut from plywood. When you release the last pin, then ease the prop into feather.

Also, there must not have been oil in the prop hub because with the oil, the prop blades change position kind of slowly. Indeed, that's a test for prop pitch control wear out, shutdown with the prop in flat pitch but not on the locks and time how slowly they move towards feather. It takes 10s of seconds. With a dry prop hub, which suggests the engine had not been started with this prop installed yet, it will snap over really fast!

Mike C.

Good thread. Some things I’d like to clear up for example, majority of 840’s don’t have air cycle machines, was also hoping for more commentary by people who have actually flown them let alone owned an 840 here. Unfortunately haven’t had time to participate. However, I will be in Peoria this week in case anyone would like to fly one Thursday or Friday with me. You buy fuel. Weather should be VFR. Just let me know.

Is that a mod? I thought all turbine Commanders came with one.

People tend to hate on ACMs but they are wonderful little machines that are misunderstood. I rebuilt mine in the V about a year after I got it, was $14K all in, you just got to know the right places to send the parts to avoid layers of middlemen racking up costs.

The main issue people seem to have is the temperature control system. A few simple tests can usually find the bad part.

They really can be reliable simple machines that do the job.

Mike C.

441 I flew had glass windshield on pilot side, plex on rh. RH anitice was an option, annd outs didn’t have it.

According to my Flight Safety manual the anti ice is bleed air, which aligns with my foggy memory of it being louder when you turned it on.

Bruce - I would take you up on that in a heartbeat if I was anywhere nearby. Always loved Commanders. When I was a kid, dad flew us to LAS and on the ramp was a sparkling brand new 680FL Grand Commander. I can still picture that like yesterday!

441 definitely uses bleed for windshield deice and for rain/defrost. Unlike the Citations, it’s just “on” or “off” and there’s no way to manually modulate it. A few planes have been modified with a manual valve but it’s pretty rare.

Robert

441 windshield anti-ice...

Pretty much what the Citations do.

We have a manual flow control valve where we can shut the flow off. We also have a high / low switch. The bleed flow doesn't stop when on the ground or gear down, which can be useful to clear the windshield before taxi. The bleed air flow clears off precip as well, something an electrical windshield can't do quickly.

Mike C.

Chase,
We have owned a Twin Commander for several years. A 690B and an 840. They have taken my family into all the corners of North America and so many places in between. From isolated villages in Alaska, to Baffin Island north of the Arctic Circle, and south to St Vincent. The amount of baggage we can haul is embarrassing. We have "upgraded" to a Citation now and its also amazing but when you are dealing with wet, snowy or slushy runways at smaller airports, it limits dispatchability.

Our 690 had -10's and our 840 -5's. The 840 was 270 kts all day long with the -5s. I guess just ask yourself what 20-30 kts is worth to you.

Cost comparison: I have never owned a 421, but I have a couple close friends that do. We spend the same or less for maintenance than they do and fly many more hours. If you ever plan fly into the Caribbean or Canada, flying Jet A is ideal. 100LL is often limited and expensive.

Operations: The garret is so easy to operate. It pays to understand the mechanics and sensors involved in the start sequence. Plan to invest a bit of time to understand how they work. Its worth the effort. The PT6 vs 331 is an interesting conversation on its own. Either one requires a shop that understands how to rig and set them up appropriately. All turbines need strong batteries. Take care of them and they will take care of you.

Training: I have been less than impressed with the big sim schools. There are a couple of guys that provide in aircraft training that really know the ins and outs of these airplanes. I highly advise you to work with one of them to get some practical training.

I'm not sure there is anything out there that does what a Commander does. Wish they built them new.....

Thank you for this wonderful testimonial. My goal is to have this airplane to create wonderful memories with my family. Similar to what you outlined.

Many have mentioned only looking at the 840 series and above but there seems to be very little appreciable difference between a 690 and an 840 other then they are older. What is your experience between the use of a 690 and an 840?