That’s a very interesting angle.

If I’ve paid $500k into an engine program and my hangar burns down taking the plane and engines with it, what happens to the $500k? The risk to the managers of the program has just dropped to zero.

You presumably insured the plane for the market value which should reflect SOME of the engine payments, though I doubt it is dollar for dollar. So maybe you get back $300K of the $500K on an agreed value policy for a total loss.

Ultimately, all engines eventually end up being scrapped, lost in fire, accident, etc. On that day, the owners paid in money that will ultimately buy nothing at all and the program folks keep it.

There is also a contractual risk. Every time your contract is up with Williams, for example, they can change the terms and they have done so. The terms inexorably march towards favoring Williams over the customer. When Williams is no longer interested in servicing their oldest engines, they can simply not offer the program any more. Too bad about you prior payments, they are gone. There is no "balance" for your account.

If a customer is late with payments sufficiently long, or cancels the program on their own volition, Williams will cancel the program on your engines. If you or the next owner try to restart the program, all the prior payments are lost and you have to pay up from zero hours to present again. This is a little known term that isn't spelled out in the contract and was detailed to me by Williams. Williams really wants it to hurt to go off program.

Williams gets a lot of money for planes that haven't reached the first overhaul. They are getting fat on that revenue. When it comes time to deliver these already paid for overhauls, that will drive up the cost of the program. Accustomed to some profit margin, they will hike prices to restore what they are used to instead of realizing they were already paid handsomely for the engines.

Another little tidbit is that off program engines have a 4000 hour TBO, on program engines have 5000 hours. This is not because the on program engines get better care since they will happily extend a 4000 hour engine to 5000 hours when you pay into the program. The metallurgy inside those engines is magical, it can last longer and heal itself if you write a big check. It is no coincidence this adjustment came online just about the time a number of early FJ44 engines in 525s started reaching about 4000 hours. Williams is happy to extend engine times if they are the ones paying for it.

Mike C.

If I overhauled my engines when they runout, my plane's value will not rise by $1.3M.

Just isn't going to happen.

Mike C.

My guess is that they were not getting very fat, but trying to survive. I met someone that had worked in management for them. About 4-5 years back, they had a fire that destroyed one of their plants that made engines for a military contract. They were paying an eye watering amount of money to the military for each day they were delayed in production. At that time, the were out of operation for almost a year IIRC.

But your V drops in value for every hour you put on those engines, there is no way around it. The engines are not free. Your engines cost you at least $400 an hour you just haven’t had to pay the bill yet so you’re acting like it doesn’t exist.

Again, you want to leave off engines… fine. But that makes the CJ2 cost $1400 an hour.

So, for $1400 an hour an un-involved owner can drop his airplane off for maintenance and not have to worry about it.

In a flat market, yes, though it won't be dollar for dollar. The effect is non linear with the last hours to TBO losing the most value, and the first hours after OH being of little consequence.

In today's market, no, my plane is not losing value as I fly it. My plane is worth a lot more than I paid for it, so the engine value reduction has been swamped by the overall market increase. If I sold my V now, I'd get back every dollar I spent on it, including all fuel. Flying for free!

Of course, that may/will change at some point. The market could crash and my plane would become near worthless.

And thus my point, engine reserves are really a market thing and not an actual expense. You can do all the math to say each hour will cost me $X, but in the end, the actual impact of plane usage is determined by the market when I sell it.


They aren't going to cost me that much. Because I am part 91 and don't have to overhaul, I can fly past TBO and I get a large chunk of low cost hours that way. I get the next 2200 hours for the price of an HSI. I'll probably sell it before I reach the end of that, and then the market will decide what a Garminized V past TBO with time remaining on an HSI will be worth. Then, and only then, can I truly know what my "reserve" was actually costing me.


No, it doesn't. There is no option for the CJ2 to fly past TBO due to the Williams monopoly on engine work. You either pay the $400/hour *all* the time, or Williams will charge you MORE when it comes to off program engine work, or you scrap the airplane when you hit a major engine event. Realistically, the only option is to pay Williams their tax, so the $400 per hour is real right now money.

That's the big difference that doesn't seem to click with you, the legal and economic landscape is radially different between my V and a CJ when it comes to how the engines get paid for.

Another aspect is the market for used engines. There is practically none for CJs due to the Williams control of the market. For the JT15D, very different. Not only are there used engines, but there are used engine parts available. HT blades, impellers, etc.


Really? They don't have any worries? Is that the delusion you tell your clients?

That sure doesn't seem to be the case for owners of CJs based on the posts I see at CJP. They seem to have plenty to worry about.

Mike C.

The very short answer is that Mike's plane doesn't cost much as long as he doesn't have an engine "event." That holds true for anyone not on a program.

I am also not on a program. Neither Mike nor I had any engine events for 2022. I am blown away by his low inspection and maintenance costs. Even with the high fuel costs, there is no doubt that his cost per mile was lower than mine, and he flew farther and faster.

The question I want answered: was 2022 a typical year? We'll have to wait and see.

And for those who want to spend even less per mile, have a bigger cabin and go almost as fast, buy a Piaggio:)

I realized last night I can easily buy an extra Piaggio, insure, hangar it and only use it when mine is down and I spend less per year between both planes than 300 hours in a phenom 300. I would also save a lot of capital.

I think the 560 route is very similar to mu2 land. Involved owners like the mikes can really get the prices manageable. Doesn’t change the fact when you fly a lot the fuel bill can be crushing. Perfect fit for low utilization. As I look at more numbers, once you cross 200 hours or so things seem to change

The Piaggio ecosystem seems fragile to me. Not many shops know the plane well, parts can be long lead or unavailable (few in salvage) or very expensive, the company is in bankruptcy, there are some onerous inspections, etc.

I wonder in the end if the total dollars per mile will be better than me. Certainly less fuel, but I wonder about other things. It will all come down to the specifics of the situation.

Someone just posted in the Piaggio thread they flew it 20 hours in the last 3 years. Now that's got to be way more expensive than my 560 if it is down so much.


Fuel is far and away my biggest line item. For 2022, it was 73% of my DOC (fuel, maintenance, parts).

What this means is my yearly costs scale with usage more pretty significantly, which is okay. Use it more, pay more, use it less, pay less. As fuel prices rise (as they have been lately), I can fly somewhat less if I need to control costs.

I think 2023 will be cheaper than 2022. Lower fuel prices overall, less maintenance. We shall see. I have a yearly phase 18 (safety equipment) inspection coming up at the end of the month, but that takes one day, otherwise nothing the rest of the year. I completed my 10,000 hour inspections earlier in the year, no findings, and then none of them recur in less than 4000 hours, so they are a one time deal for me. Those inspections involve ultrasound of wing spar knuckles, and eddy current checks of fin spar bolts, both done by a traveling specialist who came to my local shop and coordinated to coincide with other tasks at the airport.

Mike C.

The programs don't cover everything. The list of exclusions in the Williams contract has 14 separate clauses. The big one is this:

"Engine Repair due to damage caused by Improper Use, improper maintenance, abuse, neglect, hard landings, over-temperature, hot starts, contamination, pre-existing conditions, corrosion requiring component replacement outside of a Major Periodic Inspection or any other cause not within the control of Williams. Any damages, which are the responsibility of Williams, are limited to the Engine and exclude all other liability in tort or contract, including liability for consequential or incidental loss, damage or expense."

They do cover FOD and corrosion (TAP Blue). But I also have FOD insurance.

What you think are engine parts may not be. A starter generator might go bad and mess up the engine gear box. The SG is an airframe part, and Williams will not cover the engine repair (exclusion #8, parts attached to the engine by the airframe maker).


2023 will probably less, only one minor inspection to go.

2024 has no major inspections.

2025 I have a phase 1-5, phase 5 being the "big one". Once I get through that, the cost will be better known. Predicting phase 1-5 will run about $60K, but that's just a guess, which works out to $10K/year, very tolerable.

2026 is when I will need to do HSI on both engines at present usage. Maybe 2027. Hard to know what the cost will be, I see numbers all over the map. I'm guessing about $75K/side. We shall see. Once done, another 1800 hours of engine left.

Outside of major unscheduled events, that's what my future maintenance burden looks like.

Mike C.

You’re welcome…

Mike, it's your thread this time (thank God) so it's all about the V and the cost.

You don't think I get it... but I do.

I know all the angles, all the arguments, all the aspects of everything we are discussing.

Remember, before I put on my white hat, I was an aircraft broker / dealer... I sold legacy Citations... never a CJ2+... I used all of your arguments to do so, well almost all, I never represented a legacy Citation as having a $1200 an hour op cost because I didn't want to get sued.

You took my advice and bought a V instead of a SII, so I'll leave you with one more piece of sage advice, do with it what you will.

In spite of what you said earlier, you cannot just go out an buy another motor for your V, if you do have the opportunity... buy it.

Assuming you don't then you need to have at least $700k in an account or easily accessible label it "oops" and if you don't have $700k laying around, start socking back $1000 an hour for every hour you fly until you do.

You are one engine event away from your whole premise falling apart.

Most airplanes are like that.

On the scale of risks, it is manageable. I am far more worried about having an accident where my liability could be $millions. One engine isn't that big a deal on that scale.

Got to keep things in perspective.

Mike C.

I was talking with the Textron sales rep for NorCal a few days ago and he said ever since the regime change at Cessna in 2018 they have been trying to address parts pricing (in a good way). I'm sure they can't address every single part at once but it sounds like if you see a ridiculous price and ask, maybe they'll take a look and apply a reasonable margin to the cost resulting in a lower price. Ron Draper (CEO) is a supply chain guy by trade.

Interesting thread, thanks for sharing your costs, Mike.

Makes me realize I’ll never personally own/operate a jet. Unless I hit the mega millions tomorrow.