If you got a lot of money to spend.

If you don't, then older will get you a lot more airplane.

You have to consider cost of money in current times of high inflation and interest rates. If you buy an expensive airplane, that dominates the equation. You either are paying a lot of interest on a loan, or you are losing a lot of value in possible investment return and inflation value loss.

Not considering cost of money is delusional for the typical owner flown aircraft.

Mike C.

Mike C,

I don't think you are going to talk any sense about this topic into Chip. LOL

Fact is he gets paid on the selling price, not operating cost. Haha

Mike

... to waste.


Then you aren't discussing the kind of airplanes we are here.

The goal is to get the best airplane you can afford, and that means paying attention to what they cost both to acquire and to operate. You can ignore one or the other, that is the total cost of ownership.

Mike C.

... to waste.


Then you aren't discussing the kind of airplanes we are here.

The goal is to get the best airplane you can afford, and that means paying attention to what they cost both to acquire and to operate. You can ignore one or the other, that is the total cost of ownership.

Mike C.

In your self selected market, yes.

But your market isn't the only one. The legacy Citation market isn't your market, clearly. Nobody is talking about Meridian versus Phenom 300 or CJ3, that's in outer space. But a 501 versus Meridian is on point and makes sense to discuss.


That's why I said it is about emotion and not actually dollars.

If you can become emotionally compatible with paying for the fuel, then you can fly a jet for the same total cost of ownership as an overpriced SETP.

If you cannot, then your money will evaporate invisibly from the capital cost, whether you fly or not, but you won't see it when you buy fuel.

The cost of money right now is going way up, so this is a major factor in total cost of ownership.

Mike C.

That’s my point, I don’t have a selected market, I’ve done several Citation V’s…

But, I also see the broader picture. I get where you’re coming from, it’s perspective. I use to sell older Citations and King Airs, I thought people were crazy for buying X instead of what I was selling. I viewed aviation from the same lens you do.

When you work for buyers it changes your perspective, I’m no longer just selling what my employer could afford to inventory, and as a result I’m not biased towards certain types of aircraft. It’s more than that though, it’s understanding all of the reasons people make the decisions they do.

My point is there’s a lot more transactions in the later model airplanes than the old, there’s a lot that goes into that, but the obvious fact is the people buying these airplanes aren’t all delusional.

To say they are isn’t a proper assessment of their mental state, it’s just indicative of your perspective.

Let’s have a little fun.

I have a friend who has a Kodiak, it’s only a couple of years old, so probably worth $2.5M

His main mission is to go from here in Middle Tennessee to his home in Florida.

His buddy has perspective bias, just on the other end of the scale. He tells him he should buy a CJ3+… who’s right?

I reckon you're going to be told by the BT braintrust he needs a Cit V or 501. Ya' know, capex vs opex.

What a ridiculous thread of someone telling you how great their aircraft is and better than every other aircraft without having owned or flown any of the others. Some people just have different wants or needs, not every mission warrants a Citation V.

The Citation V is an amazing aircraft and in my opinion a legacy/thirsty version of the CJ3. Citation V is one of my favorites, but the King Air 300 was the best plane I’ve ever flown and everyone that saw it and rode in it liked it over the citation unless it was a long trip. On a 500mi trip the king air was 15-20 minutes slower at most and used 100 gallons less fuel. You can almost always find smooth air in a king air, if you fly a citation in the low 20’s the fuel burn will make your eyes water. The King Air was almost same fixed costs as the citation, but different caliber of maintenance. Variable costs were less.

Trying to reason that a Citation V is as cheap as a meridian is crazy. The TBM is even less than a Citation V and meridian is below that.

PC-12 is more expensive to own than the citation although the variable operating costs were way lower.

Although some may disagree, there is a difference in optics arriving in a turbo prop vs. arriving or flying a jet. Sometimes the attitude of they can “stick it” doesn’t work for everyone and everywhere.

With a purchase cost to match. A $5M King Air 300 is $300,000 in capex expense per year. That's $2000 an hour for a 150 hour per year operator.

When considering owner flown, low use airplanes, the capex part of the equation dominates, particularly in these times of high interest rates and inflation. To ignore it and concentrate only on the operating cost misses the major cost of owning an airplane.

Did you own the planes you flew? Was it your money that was invested in them? If not, easy for you not to see the capital expense part of the equation.


A 501 might be given a particular situation due to low purchase price and availability of a reduced inspection schedule.

It is basic math which yields a counter intuitive result.

Mike C.

With a purchase cost to match. A $5M King Air 300 is $300,000 in capex expense per year. That's $2000 an hour for a 150 hour per year operator.

When considering owner flown, low use airplanes, the capex part of the equation dominates, particularly in these times of high interest rates and inflation. To ignore it and concentrate only on the operating cost misses the major cost of owning an airplane.

Did you own the planes you flew? Was it your money that was invested in them? If not, easy for you not to see the capital expense part of the equation.


A 501 might be given a particular situation due to low purchase price and availability of a reduced inspection schedule.

It is basic math which yields a counter intuitive result.

Mike C.

For his personal use? Not a corporate or charter aircraft? He posts about looking for so many aircraft that it is hard to pick out which one is his personal one, if any.


Arithmetic doesn't care who you are.

Fly 150 hours in a $1.5M Meridian and fly the equivalent miles in a $500K Citation 501 (about 110 hours or so). The 501 is overall cheaper when cost of money, insurance, taxes, and other factors related to the hull value are included.

For the corporate operator, the arithmetic is different. If they fly high usage, then the operating costs dominate.

It is all about fitting the plane to the budget, but you can't hand wave away the enduring costs of a high value hull.

Mike C.

For his personal use? Not a corporate or charter aircraft? He posts about looking for so many aircraft that it is hard to pick out which one is his personal one, if any.


Arithmetic doesn't care who you are.

Fly 150 hours in a $1.5M Meridian and fly the equivalent miles in a $500K Citation 501 (about 110 hours or so). The 501 is overall cheaper when cost of money, insurance, taxes, and other factors related to the hull value are included.

For the corporate operator, the arithmetic is different. If they fly high usage, then the operating costs dominate.

It is all about fitting the plane to the budget, but you can't hand wave away the enduring costs of a high value hull.

Mike C.

Here’s an important math equation.

Cost of HT Blades X 2 divided by hours remaining to HSI.

Take that amount and stick it in the bank for a rainy day.

It’s basic math. I bet it’s almost as much as the Williams tax.

Mike,

My whole life pretty much consists of aviation and I like getting to fly different airplanes. No airplane is perfect and while the market was climbing, I enjoyed all of the different jets and turbo props I got to fly. I’d even really like to fly a Piaggio for a while, but too nervous about parts and resale at this point in the market. I think you make a ton of great points on the versatility of the Citation V, but occasionally you have to give some credit to the rest of aircraft out there. I might be wrong, but I believe there are close to 5000 king airs produced, they must have done something right.

You seem like a very knowledgeable Citation operator and know how to get the most out of your budget, but you compare maintenance cost of other aircraft as if they are going to name brand shops against how you maintain your citation. If you want to compare aircraft apples to apples, I’m all ears. What do operating costs look like if you have a citation maintained at West Star or Duncan vs a King Air at Elliott or Stevens?