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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 19:29 
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Sorry for polluting this thread. In my defense I view the Meridian as a mini-PC12, so I was kind of, sort of on topic.... No? Well, my apologies.

I do think the market's conventional wisdom is better than my own, and the market has spoken. SETP is superior to METP as evidenced by resale values.


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 19:35 
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Yes, it is quite a machine.

On fuel, I am surprised that I'm not burning that much more, maybe less, than 501 operators per mile. I fly higher (lower fuel burn, less traffic, less weather), fly faster (cuts headwind effects), and can fly longer legs (removes fuel stops sometimes) than they do.

You never hear of twin jets having VMC rollover when operating on one engine. Just doesn't happen. A single engine go around is no big deal, maybe you get 1000 FPM, too.


But that isn't the actual choice.

You can maintain your skills properly and avoid the VMC roll over entirely. It is not an inevitable outcome of engine failure, nor is it a common outcome actually. We just here about them more.

A single engine pilot gliding has to maintain their skills to avoiding stalling. That seems equivalent, and the pictured case shows what happens when you don't manage it.

I trained for the MU2 every 6 months with a heavy emphasis on engine failure scenarios. I was very proficient at them. I seriously doubt I would be one of those who end up in a VMC rollover.

The engine failure scenarios in the Citation are boring, so not an issue.

I like a twin because I transferred the risk from an unknowable latent mechanical fault to a pilot ability I can train for. In other words, my risk profile is different than the statistics because my situation is different.

Airliners have 2+ engines for the same reason. An airliner shuts down an engine somewhere in the world almost every day and nobody hears about them. Why? They have another engine and they have well trained crews.

Mike C.



Give or take, you get other issues with jets, especially owner operators

Image


Per the Pilatus ditching that was a issue with ferry tanks, no fuel flow and it doesn’t really matter how many engines you have

Image

“Gimli glider”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 19:51 
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I rode in a pc12 a couple weeks ago, I fly an Aerostar and normally climb at 150KIAS, get past 115kts asap after rotating at 90-95kts.

When I was sitting in the back I watched the guy rotate at 90 and climb at 100 for a while, major pucker factor for me… it’s unbelievable how slow that airplane can fly. I so badly wanted to go push the nose over a little bit to get the airspeed up.


It can definitely fly slow. I’ve got little more than 3000 hours in the PC-12 at this point. Legacy, NG, and NGX. Rotate is usually 74-84 depending on weight, I rotate to the command bars, then keep pitching for 95 knots with flaps 15 in. I fly that to 900’ AGL, push the nose over to accelerate to 100 knots by 1000’ AGL. Then slowly accelerate to 130 while flaps are in transit to 0°. At about this point I’m usually 2000’ and start pushing the nose over to 7° nose up, which accelerates to a cruise climb of 175-180 knots. (All assuming sea level, and no icing in the climb, or bumps).

Flaps 40°, depending on weight, I’ve seen as slow as 68 knots before touch down!


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 20:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
Per the Pilatus ditching that was a issue with ferry tanks

It wasn't:

https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/crash-p ... ea-okhotsk

"The pilot reported in a telephonic interview that the aircraft was established in cruise at 8,100 meters altitude when he felt a vibration followed by a rapid increase in the engine's Turbine Temperature Indication (TTI). He reported that the TTI reached 1144 degrees during which there was a compressor stall."

"Probable cause: Engine failure for unknown reasons."

Nothing about lack of fuel.

They were in the water 15 hours and luckily got saved by a Russian freighter.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 20:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
SETP is superior to METP as evidenced by resale values.

Which is fantastic for those of us who want METP.

Many SETP operate in a different economic class than the older METP. Expensive airplanes have less accidents. Money has always been correlated with safety in aviation, in fact that connection is woven throughout the regulations.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 20:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
Per the Pilatus ditching that was a issue with ferry tanks

It wasn't:

https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/crash-p ... ea-okhotsk

"The pilot reported in a telephonic interview that the aircraft was established in cruise at 8,100 meters altitude when he felt a vibration followed by a rapid increase in the engine's Turbine Temperature Indication (TTI). He reported that the TTI reached 1144 degrees during which there was a compressor stall."

"Probable cause: Engine failure for unknown reasons."

Nothing about lack of fuel.

They were in the water 15 hours and luckily got saved by a Russian freighter.

Mike C.



Thought I heard something different, I’ll have to reach out to some folks

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 21:39 
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I believe there were two PC-12 Pacific ditchings. The one mentioned up thread with an apparent engine failure and this one due to ferry tank/plumbing issues: https://aerossurance.com/emergency-resp ... -ditching/. Pretty amazing that both crews were rescued.

Greg


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 21:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
SETP is superior to METP as evidenced by resale values.

Which is fantastic for those of us who want METP.

Many SETP operate in a different economic class than the older METP. Expensive airplanes have less accidents. Money has always been correlated with safety in aviation, in fact that connection is woven throughout the regulations.

Mike C.


Mike,

"Expensive airplanes have less accidents"

Maybe only because there are fewer expensive airplanes, unless you have another explanation. Any idiot with a lot of money can buy expensive airplanes. And they sometimes do.

Edit: On PT-6 reliability; maybe some models of the engine are more reliable than other models. :shrug: I've never flown a turbo prop airplane, but always wanted to fly a King Air 200.

Last edited on 30 Jan 2023, 21:58, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 21:58 
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I’ve successfully managed a critical engine failure at rotation in a Cessna 421, the right engine brought me home safely. That incident prompted the exit from pistons into a METP, the Cessna 441. I can fly up to FL 350, so 5000’ more than the PC-12. I doubt many fly above FL 280 in the PC, please chime in if I’m wrong. That’s a big operational advantage IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 22:08 
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I’ve successfully managed a critical engine failure at rotation in a Cessna 421, the right engine brought me home safely. That incident prompted the exit from pistons into a METP, the Cessna 441. I can fly up to FL 350, so 5000’ more than the PC-12. I doubt many fly above FL 280 in the PC, please chime in if I’m wrong. That’s a big operational advantage IMO.


Higher is better. Airline pilots, or any jet pilots spend more time in VMC conditions than IMC conditions because they can climb above the weather most of the time, up into clear, smooth air. Getting stuck at FL250 or so doesn't avoid as much weather and may not have a smooth ride, and may have to deviate around weather.

Edit: Every airplane is a compromise; there isn't one that does it all.


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 22:31 
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I’ve successfully managed a critical engine failure at rotation in a Cessna 421, the right engine brought me home safely. That incident prompted the exit from pistons into a METP, the Cessna 441. I can fly up to FL 350, so 5000’ more than the PC-12. I doubt many fly above FL 280 in the PC, please chime in if I’m wrong. That’s a big operational advantage IMO.



PC12s happy place is mid to high 20s for speed, but I also haven’t seen 421s with dirt bikes in the back or landing in the back country, different mission, if one uses a PC12 to the full extent of its abilities there isn’t much of a plane to compare it to


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 22:53 
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The other thing to consider in the SETP and METP debate is simplicity, or conversely complexity. We all like to think that we are Chuck Yeager, and on a Monday morning with a full weekend of rest on a sunny day, we are probably pretty close. But reality is that sometimes we are flying after a long week, and a long day, and weather may not be cooperating, and the long day part... It is night. A simpler plane as long as it is similarly capable is going to be a lot easier to get it right, and a lot harder to get behind. In my plane, I sometimes make stuff up to pretend I have something to do. Engine failure in turbines is statistical noise in the accident percentages. What turbine pilots usually do is kill perfectly good airplanes by screwing up. More complexity, more things to screw up.

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 23:29 
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I’ve successfully managed a critical engine failure at rotation in a Cessna 421, the right engine brought me home safely. That incident prompted the exit from pistons into a METP, the Cessna 441. I can fly up to FL 350, so 5000’ more than the PC-12. I doubt many fly above FL 280 in the PC, please chime in if I’m wrong. That’s a big operational advantage IMO.



PC12s happy place is mid to high 20s for speed, but I also haven’t seen 421s with dirt bikes in the back or landing in the back country, different mission, if one uses a PC12 to the full extent of its abilities there isn’t much of a plane to compare it to


How about this much of an airplane, the PC24? 2690 takeoff distance Part 91. 440 knot cruise.

Just take the PC-12 costs and add a few more bucks for acquisition of a PC-24, and add a few more bucks for operating costs, and what's not to like? :)

Edit: I can see a real niche market for the PC 24 charter operations into remote airports, hunting, fishing, or a flight to the Bunny Ranch in Nevada, etc, :) , for the folks who have the money that want to go there fast in a charter jet. We'll see them on corporate ranches and farms. That's my theory anyway.

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Last edited on 30 Jan 2023, 23:50, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 23:34 
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Username Protected wrote:

How about this much of an airplane, the PC24? 2690 takeoff distance Part 91. 440 knot cruise.

Just take the PC-12 costs and add a few more bucks for acquisition of a PC-24, and add a few more bucks for operating costs, and what's not to like? :)



24 is awsome, lands faster so it’s not going to get in as tight of spots as the 12, but 24 is a very nice, but expensive, ship


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 23:42 
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A simpler plane as long as it is similarly capable is going to be a lot easier to get it right, and a lot harder to get behind.

But the twin is simpler for the pilot.

If both fans work, no difference. Just move the knobs together, it is just like a single.

If one fan dies, it is way simpler to have enough thrust to still fly (as well as having pressurization, electrical power, hydraulic power, etc). So when an engine fails, I want to be in the twin.

It is really difficult if you lost all your thrust and can't fly any more, the stress on the pilot is extreme.

I am fortunate that I could move to a jet where is it abundantly clear two is better than one, and they are a lot "simpler" in some sense, but more complex in others.

Mike C.

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