13 Nov 2025, 02:45 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b  Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 12:51 |
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Joined: 04/28/09
Posts: 1556
Post Likes: +108
Company: ARC Group Medical
Location: Jacksonville , FL (KCRG)
Aircraft: 1976 Bonanza V35TN
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Username Protected wrote: We gotta give the PC-12 more then a Chevy status!!! It's at a minimum an Cadillac Escalade... TBM is E63 AMG maybe... If it were me then I'd be flyinc a PC-12 all day long! I love the rush of a fast exotic car, but when I want to be comfortable on a trip with some friends I take big ass caddy.. Awesome picture of you Tony on the back of this months Twin & Turbine magazine. You're a star.
You saw that Greg??? Thanks, the cool part the photographer actually took hundreds of pics of mostly the plane that he sent to me....
Tony
_________________
Former GenX Bonanza owner.... now flying the 421 Golden Turkey
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 13:18 |
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Joined: 11/18/11
Posts: 2488
Post Likes: +2542
Location: X35, FL
Aircraft: PA28 180C
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Username Protected wrote: We gotta give the PC-12 more then a Chevy status!!! It's at a minimum an Cadillac Escalade... TBM is E63 AMG maybe... If it were me then I'd be flyinc a PC-12 all day long! I love the rush of a fast exotic car, but when I want to be comfortable on a trip with some friends I take big ass caddy.. I always call my Pilatus "The Range Rover of Airplanes".
That comment makes me think of Lucas avionics... ... ...
Based on my experiences with severl old Triumphs
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 16:40 |
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Joined: 01/14/09
Posts: 825
Post Likes: +313
Location: Boise, ID
Aircraft: 06 Meridian, C180
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Username Protected wrote: You saw that Greg??? Thanks, the cool part the photographer actually took hundreds of pics of mostly the plane that he sent to me....
Tony I did see it. It came in the mail yesterday. Pretty awesome! Did they pay you for your professional modeling services? 
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 16:44 |
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Joined: 01/14/09
Posts: 825
Post Likes: +313
Location: Boise, ID
Aircraft: 06 Meridian, C180
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Username Protected wrote: Greg,
Also, you need to take a look at runway numbers hot and high, places like Aspen, Telluride and Jackson Hole. Did not do a proper analysis on TBM in this case, but a jet like Mustang and Phenom 100 really leaves a lot of be desired. At KJAC for example, as long as the temperate is below 90, KA350 is still fuel full and full payload to meet the required climb gradients both north and south. A Mustang just cannot pull this off, unless you violate FARs and assume no engine failure, which then makes you no safer than a TBM. Yes, I've seen it done all the time. Fully loaded Mustangs, Phenoms, CJ1 leaving Jackson at 2PM in July with the temps in the 90s. If they were to lose an engine, I'd rather be in a TBM with 65knot stall speed. Well, actually, I'd rather be in a KA350. William, Read both of your replies. You could be right. I don't know. I haven't flown either and each owner seems to feel his plane is "the best". We are all guilty of that. I can tell you there are a number of threads by former TBM owners on the CJP forum who differ with your assessments here. No surprise there. Perhaps the most objective piece of data might be the number of those that move from TBM -> Mustang versus those that go from the Mustand -> TBM? It sounds reasonable to me at least.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 17:12 |
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Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 12190
Post Likes: +3074
Company: Looking
Location: Outside Boston, or some hotel somewhere
Aircraft: None
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Username Protected wrote: Greg,
Also, you need to take a look at runway numbers hot and high, places like Aspen, Telluride and Jackson Hole. Did not do a proper analysis on TBM in this case, but a jet like Mustang and Phenom 100 really leaves a lot of be desired. At KJAC for example, as long as the temperate is below 90, KA350 is still fuel full and full payload to meet the required climb gradients both north and south. A Mustang just cannot pull this off, unless you violate FARs and assume no engine failure, which then makes you no safer than a TBM. Yes, I've seen it done all the time. Fully loaded Mustangs, Phenoms, CJ1 leaving Jackson at 2PM in July with the temps in the 90s. If they were to lose an engine, I'd rather be in a TBM with 65knot stall speed. Well, actually, I'd rather be in a KA350. William, Read both of your replies. You could be right. I don't know. I haven't flown either and each owner seems to feel his plane is "the best". We are all guilty of that. I can tell you there are a number of threads by former TBM owners on the CJP forum who differ with your assessments here. No surprise there. Perhaps the most objective piece of data might be the number of those that move from TBM -> Mustang versus those that go from the Mustand -> TBM? It sounds reasonable to me at least.
No, because a lot of a plane purchase is emotional. And the jet will win that debate every time.
Tim
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 18:55 |
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Joined: 08/25/13
Posts: 615
Post Likes: +128
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Username Protected wrote: If true, the emotion will eventually wear out and they will return to the TBM. I don't think anyone is trading a TBM for a Mustang these days. M2 or CJ2+, yes, but not a Mustang. Pretty much zero new Mustangs sold last year. TBM900 production sold out.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 19:10 |
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Joined: 01/14/09
Posts: 825
Post Likes: +313
Location: Boise, ID
Aircraft: 06 Meridian, C180
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Username Protected wrote: I don't think anyone is trading a TBM for a Mustang these days. M2 or CJ2+, yes, but not a Mustang. Pretty much zero new Mustangs sold last year. TBM900 production sold out. Not sure where you're getting your data from. There have been almost as many Mustangs sold lifetime as TBM's, in a much shorter time frame. There have been plenty of Mustang sales this year: http://jetaviva.com/market-reports/cita ... ter-14.phpIn fact the Mustang market seems way more active than the TBM market: http://jetaviva.com/market-reports/soca ... ter-14.phpAnd, as I said before, plenty of people on the Mustang forum talking about their move up from the TBM.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 12 Dec 2014, 19:20 |
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Joined: 03/18/09
Posts: 1161
Post Likes: +247
Company: Elemental - Pipistrel
Location: KHCR
Aircraft: Citation CJ2+
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Username Protected wrote: I don't think anyone is trading a TBM for a Mustang these days. M2 or CJ2+, yes, but not a Mustang. Pretty much zero new Mustangs sold last year. TBM900 production sold out. Not sure where you're getting your data from. There have been almost as many Mustangs sold lifetime as TBM's, in a much shorter time frame. There have been plenty of Mustang sales this year: http://jetaviva.com/market-reports/cita ... ter-14.phpIn fact the Mustang market seems way more active than the TBM market: http://jetaviva.com/market-reports/soca ... ter-14.phpAnd, as I said before, plenty of people on the Mustang forum talking about their move up from the TBM.
Had a large discussion about this at the last CJP conference with some people. I know originally that a lot of the mustang drivers where people moving up from a TBM. Given the fact that they slowed production way down on the mustang, a lot of new owners are stepping into the M2.
The forums over at CJP are full of former TBM owners talking about why they moved up, but you have to take all of that with a grain of salt. Just like over here, everyone wants to feel good about their decision and you can try and justify anything.
I think the move from the TBM to a mustang still makes a lot of sense and I would have a tough time personally spending the same amount on a used TBM as a used mustang. BUT - the mission does dictate that to a degree. If you trips are only a few hundred nm, then maybe the TBM makes more sense.
I think there are other factors at play when you look at people buying brand new planes versus used ones. I know a guy that just bought an 850 and paid more for that than a used mustang. But, he flies in congested airspace and his trips were really cut out for it.
It's kind of tough to sit here and second guess what motivation there is for which aircraft, especially between those two. Keep in mind a lot of people are scared of the type rating (that is a big factor I hear from people... which is weird) and the sim training requirements.
_________________
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Jason Talley
Pipistrel Distributor
http://www.elemental.aero
CJ2+
7GCBC
Pipsitrel Panthera
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 13 Dec 2014, 01:00 |
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Joined: 05/23/08
Posts: 6062
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Location: CMB7, Ottawa, Canada
Aircraft: TBM - C185 - T206
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A new TBM owner traded a Mustang and Meridian for a new 900.
On a 530 nm milk run he arrives within 5 min of the Mustang time on a lot less fuel.
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Former Baron 58 owner.
Pistons engines are for tractors.
Marc Bourdon
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 13 Dec 2014, 11:09 |
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8726
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Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: A new TBM owner traded a Mustang and Meridian for a new 900.
On a 530 nm milk run he arrives within 5 min of the Mustang time on a lot less fuel. This plus the occasional +1000 mile trip is what has me leaning this way. The idea of the Mustang is more appealing but I'm not that the reality delivers as well as the TBM. If you can get past the twin vs. single issue.  (well that and the owner cleaned toilet…)
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 13 Dec 2014, 11:43 |
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Joined: 06/23/09
Posts: 2320
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Location: KIKK......Kankakee, Illinois
Aircraft: TBM 850
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I fly a 700C2. TAS 285 at FL310. Lands at similar speeds to the Bonanza. Very impressed with the plane. I suppose a potty would be nice. But hell I'm up front..... I can't use it anyway!! If I needed to haul more people and stuff I would go with the pilatus
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 13 Dec 2014, 12:00 |
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Joined: 11/21/09
Posts: 12465
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Location: Albany, TX
Aircraft: Prior SR22T,V35B,182
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Username Protected wrote: I fly a 700C2. TAS 285 at FL310. Lands at similar speeds to the Bonanza. Very impressed with the plane. I suppose a potty would be nice. But hell I'm up front..... I can't use it anyway!! If I needed to haul more people and stuff I would go with the pilatus That's no problem. Do what JC did and put a PTT in the potty.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus is with out doubt the greatest Turbo Prop ever b Posted: 13 Dec 2014, 14:41 |
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Joined: 03/18/09
Posts: 1161
Post Likes: +247
Company: Elemental - Pipistrel
Location: KHCR
Aircraft: Citation CJ2+
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Username Protected wrote: A new TBM owner traded a Mustang and Meridian for a new 900.
On a 530 nm milk run he arrives within 5 min of the Mustang time on a lot less fuel. This plus the occasional +1000 mile trip is what has me leaning this way. The idea of the Mustang is more appealing but I'm not that the reality delivers as well as the TBM. If you can get past the twin vs. single issue. (well that and the owner cleaned toilet…)
I do 1000nm trips all the time without fail.
I think Marc and I would agree on a few things regarding the TBM. One, is the TBM is a tank. It rides turbulence like a champ. This is a big difference from the PA46 (which it is often compared to). Two, you pay for the extra engine one way or the other. There is no way getting around feeding two engines and the programs cost.
Here is my take on the difference. One, the Mustang, or CJ, is a jet. It has some of the jet qualities, such as AC on the ground with a GPU, quiet cabin, flight about the high twenties weather. It has some of the drawbacks, higher fuel burn down low, need to climb.
If I was doing 500nm trips all the time, the TBM would probably have fit the mission better. 750, I like the jet. I also like the programs that I have with Cessna, and I think those make the cost of ownership a bit more predictable. But, that is subject to debate. For me, it is nice.
On another note, something that was a big issue for me personally was luggage and cargo room. I have huge amounts, much more than the TBM and it is outside the cabin (which is good and bad - depends on the time). I like that. Some don't.
A friend of mine is looking at a TBM real hard. I'm pretty excited. I hope I get to fly it some.
Let's be honest, one airplane hardly ever fills every mission need. We all need 3 or 4... :-)
I do think it is easier to get insured in a TBM than a jet and the training requirements are certainly less onerous (at least from the FAA's viewpoint).
Marc, would you get a A or B model (I think that is what my friend is looking at).
-ajson
_________________
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Jason Talley
Pipistrel Distributor
http://www.elemental.aero
CJ2+
7GCBC
Pipsitrel Panthera
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