All this talk about being captive to the Williams program makes me wonder - do the airframe and avionics programs for the CJ series have an equivalent capture? Or if one opts out of those is it like any other airplane maintenance, ie on the owner when it comes up? Are the parts programs smart, or just a way to smooth the payments? What about avionics?

Sad reality is that there are no options beside Pratt and Williams. That's why I'm really rooting for the HondaJet and that eco-system.

Honda has a monopoly on major engine service.

They also have an engine program. Not sure what it costs, I think it is similar to Williams.

In other words, it may not be better in the end if the economics are basically the same as Williams.

It may help that Honda could be perceived as competition for new designs and retrofits where the engine program costs are a factor for customer acceptance.

Mike C.

Not really the same.

You have viable options to service the airframe and avionics outside the manufacturer, and you can change the avionics wholesale (like I did). Also, there is no HSI/OH interval imposed on airframe and avionics things outside a few life limited parts.


I think they are dumb.

The 525 series is largely on ProParts where Textron can charge you full retail prices on every part they stick into your plane relative to your "balance". These programs cost a lot and prices are rising very rapidly on owners. It is a common gripe on the Citation forums about these program prices. The service centers have a "change boxes until it works" mentality, which really drives up costs.


There are a few programs, like Collins has for Proline 21 or Honeywell for Primus 1000 (with those awful CRT screens). These are generally covering expensive systems with complex boxes that only are deployed in jets.

My Garmin panel, however, trumps all that and I suspect it will give lots of relatively trouble free service with reasonable repair costs should I need it. My GTN 750 is the same as one in a 172, so it is hard for Garmin to price gouge the jet operator. Not so for things like PL21.

This also means my entire database subscription is $700/year since it is the same as any piston Garmin setup. The subscription cost for jet only FMS systems can be eye watering.

Mike C.

The options for JT15D are not limited.

I can put it on program if I want or not. I think there is more than one, JSSI, Pratt, etc. I can even buy just unscheduled insurance if I want to get that piece of mind without the main expense.

I can have Pratt overhaul it. I can have top line shop, like Dallas, do it. Or I can get a basic overhaul at places like Hale or others.

I can buy used engines and hang them on my airframe.

I can sell my engines to others.

I can collect used parts and used engines for parts in the open market.

I can fly the engine past TBO.

I won't get a surprise change in terms or prices for a program.

None of the above are options for Williams.

NONE!

The characterization that there are minor differences between the ecosystems of Williams and JT15D is just wrong. It is night and day.

The only choice you get with Williams is whether you want to overpay for your engine work continuously, or in one big chunk at the end.

Mike C.

Thousands of smart people disagree with owning an airplane or being a pilot, too.

Fortunately, I've never let the crowd define my direction.

I'll leave you to guide the minions of orthodoxy to their bland and expensive refuge of conformity.

Mike C.

Thousands of smart people disagree with owning an airplane or being a pilot, too.

Fortunately, I've never let the crowd define my direction.

I'll leave you to guide the minions of orthodoxy to their bland and expensive refuge of conformity.

Mike C.

There is absolutely no difference in a Dallas or Pratt or Standard hot section and a competent engine mechanic doing it in the field…except the price. I’ve seen similar failures and successes from all of them. There are several good independent JT15D overhaul shops and a few bad ones.

JT15Ds have lots of options. I’ve figured most of them out by trying what does and doesn’t work.

Michael,

That is not true. Resale value is absolutely effected if you do not use a DOFF shop to do overhauls.

This is the same argument that tells people to take their airplane to a factory service center where they try to make it new again at gratuitous expense.

If you do all those things to preserve your value, you spent it all only to discover it returns ten cents on the dollar at the end. There just isn't enough market value to contain all the benefits you say exist in these legacy airplanes.

Maintaining the perception of high value always comes with the risk that bubble bursts. I can understand why it would be in your business interest to keep that bubble going.

The Emperor has no clothes. Those who can see will figure that out.

Mike C.

Michael,

That is not true. Resale vale is absolutely effected if you do not use a DOFF shop to do overhauls.

You guys are comical!

Call Mike Borden at High Performance Aircraft 858-442-5000 ask him about the 560 he bailed me out of 8 years ago. Hale overhauls.

You guys are babes in the woods!

So thankful I don’t sell airplanes anymore!

I like you chip but I spend my own money on these hots and am ATP type rated and fly every single airplane post engine work and know every single part number going into the engines by memory. I know a good engine from bad and have had great experiences doing what I’m doing. All shops are using the same repair providers not really sure why the name of the shop matters in reassembly.

Michael,

That is not true. Resale vale is absolutely effected if you do not use a DOFF shop to do overhauls.