In my experience, there is a lot of bouncing below 18,000 feet. And there is a lot of bouncing above 28,000 feet. Not much bouncing FL 180-280. It is kind of the sweet spot below the jet stream turbulence and above the mountain and thermal turbulence. On those days when you see the Airmets for moderate turbulence overlapping. Like surface to FL18,000 feet and FL180-FL410, a pretty common occurrence when the jet stream is dipping south, that no mans land is usually a pretty good ride.

Would recommend really learning radar, though, if you are going to fly weather in the lower flight levels.

If you had to pick the real sweet spot it is probably FL220 -260. Almost nothing going on in that band, even when the the pistons are suffering and the airliners are begging for smooth air.

We operated one of those too Mark. Beautiful plane ahead of its time, and I’m sure the 12 month wait for gear pins has been resolved but I’m trying to get away from orphaned planes supported by bankrupt companies.[/quote]


Baykar bought it with intent to produce it in larger numbers they say …Largest drone producer in the world. No more bankruptcy. BTW 7 are in production right now, it never stopped production.

Never heard of the gear pin issue I guess that was before my time with the airplane.

Baykar bought it with intent to produce it in larger numbers they say.

If the Piaggio is such a wonderful airplane, why haven't one of the majors purchased the company? Textron? Embraer? Gulfstream?

Why hasn't another manufacturer copied the design of the Piaggio? Like Textron copied the PC-12...?

If the design of the Piaggio is such a wonderful and revolutionary concept, as you would have us believe Mark, why has it been such a failure in the marketplace?[/quote]

One of life’s great mysteries….. or not.

Easy. The Piaggio was marketed incorrectly and had a very poor service center base when it first came online in the early 1990s. The aircraft was intended to be a crew flown alternative to the smaller G-100 and Falcon corporate crowd not a personal owner flown airplane. The problem was it was conceived in an era of spiking fuel costs and brought to market in relatively cheap fuel costs. The target market thought of it as weird looking and not a jet which hurt it as well. Fast forward 20 years. The new market which is the private owner operator of smaller jets and larger turboprops is easy pickens for the Piaggio. A perfect example is your own Conquest II. Why would you choose to fly 80 knots slower, 8,000 feet lower with a much smaller louder cabin that’s 3000’ higher? On the same fuel flow. Without a truly usable lav?Maintenance expenses are nearly identical to the Conquest with all of its required SIDs inspections. The price Delta for a well equipped Conquest 2 and a fully “Garminized” Piaggio 180 is nearly zero… so why?

As to the aforementioned manufacturers that question is also easily explained…. Gulfstream left the smaller jet size product years ago, Embraer has never had interest in turboprops to my knowledge and Textron didn’t want to bring on a product that would literally gut the King Air….why would you buy a King Air (other than short field performance which I admit is very important to some) when you could buy a Textron Piaggio with the same factory support?

The Piaggio has the best fatality record of any turboprop or jet ever produced. Bet you didn’t know that. 1 in 35 years . ONE.

I typically find the smoothest air in the upper 30's and low 40's. The 20's are where I get a lot of bumps. Mid teens are usually good as well. Of course, if there is a weather system with some energy impacting the area, then it becomes a guessing game. Sometimes a 2,000' change can take you from moderate to smooth.

We operated one of those too Mark. Beautiful plane ahead of its time, and I’m sure the 12 month wait for gear pins has been resolved but I’m trying to get away from orphaned planes supported by bankrupt companies.

Well actually I think that designation would be exceeded by the Piper M600 and M700 at 0 fatalities and more copies out there than the Piaggio. Although only flying for 9 years. Until there is an accident, then so was the concord Actually, there are several types of airplanes with 0 fatalities, but fly enough of them long enough and someone will figure out how to kill it.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comparison… a Ferrari to a Chevy.

Well actually I think that designation would be exceeded by the Piper M600 and M700 at 0 fatalities and more copies out there than the Piaggio. Although only flying for 9 years. Until there is an accident, then so was the concord Actually, there are several types of airplanes with 0 fatalities, but fly enough of them long enough and someone will figure out how to kill it.

I wouldn't discount the M600 as just an improved Meridian. It carries the same type certiificate but has substantial differences. And the tech will eclipse that of the Piaggio. Hell it can land itself. There are M600's flying all over the world in all kinds of weather, so not just running VFR circuits in the pattern. Here are 3 crossing the Atlantic in Iceland. Saw 3 in Mexico on the ramp when I was in Cabo. So Piaggio fatals 1, M600 0. Do your own statistical analysis

Kind of late right now, but there are 5 times as many PA46 variants in the air as P180's. So not sure how many hours they fly.

I wouldn't discount the M600 as just an improved Meridian. It carries the same type certiificate but has substantial differences. And the tech will eclipse that of the Piaggio. Hell it can land itself. There are M600's flying all over the world in all kinds of weather, so not just running VFR circuits in the pattern. Here are 3 crossing the Atlantic in Iceland. Saw 3 in Mexico on the ramp when I was in Cabo. So Piaggio fatals 1, M600 0. Do your own statistical analysis

Kind of late right now, but there are 5 times as many PA46 variants in the air as P180's. So not sure how many hours they fly.

These are great questions...

Depends on how big the hineys in the seats are. For a young family with 4 children, could be pretty close to max range. Full of elevated BMI's adults, going to leave some fuel behind.

Well that was non-specific. So to be specific. Traveling with 3 couples to Coachella this weekend. For 3 FAA standard males 190 lbs with luggage, and 3 FAA standard females 179 lbs with luggage, you have 3.2 hours flight time with IFR 1 hour reserves. With a block speed of 247 knots that equates to 800 nm with IFR reserves.

I’m guessing their fleet hours are getting closer everyday with twice the sales in 8 years. Kind of like the Mustang. Over twice the total sales in 1/4 of the time and now a 20 year old plane. Not sure how many Mustangs have been wrecked but I bet there’s not a single one that was the plane’s fault.

I’d love to have a P180 but never felt comfortable with the support since I watched the factory reps bid against their own customers when the fractional scam was auctioned off. That was an eye opener. Oh and maintaining one with all the $30,000 actuators (10 years ago price). I’m not saying it’s bad, just another ecosystem and set of compromises. And may be well worth it for the cabin alone?

Back to topic, to me the Mustang is a modern and super efficient personal jet for the regional missions in a nice compact package. And it has a factory integrated modern Garmin panel. G1000Nxi is more advanced and flexible than early G3000’s. Very cool plane that I would love to fly.