I need someone to explain that to me as well. It sounds about as good as buying a bridge in NY.

Mike C.

Most engine companies will admit they don't make their money from engine sales, the service side is where the real money is.

Yes, it's called "owner funded".

But yes, TAP Blue is the best engine program I know of.

It isn't the program that's the main issue, it is the treatment you get off program from Williams. No third party shops, king's ransom HSI/OH costs, etc. Williams penalizes off program so much as to make it non viable. Williams has told me they purposefully price off program (what they call "commercial") work 30% higher than if you had made the program payments.

Mike C.

Because the 501 is lame and under powered otherwise.


Only way you can get it now, of course.


An FJ44-4 upgrade to a 560 has been looked into seriously before. The projected $2.5M upgrade cost just isn't viable for the market. So what you describe is a fantasy, it will never happen.

Williams would make more money if the lowered the engine prices and encouraged more such conversions. But alas, no.

I would seriously consider a 560 with FJ44-4 at about a $500K premium. At $1M premium, too much. But this is an academic discussion, that choice will never be presented.

Since owning a JT15D, I have become more favorable to them. Thrust reversers are a bigger deal than I had thought. Simple mechanical fuel controls avoid all these FADEC issues people have. Simple systems. I am surprised that my fuel premium is as low as it is, due to the extra performance of the V. I thought that would be 30% but it is closer to 15% as compared to, say, 510/550 with FJ44.

Mike C.

This is exactly Mike’s point. If Williams would offer a pair of FJ44-4's for $400,000 and then charge an engine program fee of $500 an hour they would convert half the fleet.

I get that Mike hates Williams but for guys like me its perfect. I can not self fund an engine program. No way I can risk a $100K Plus event. I would much rather pay per hour to have the insurance, that risk I can manage.

Not sure why Mike has to bash the Williams program in just about every thread. I love you Mike and have learned a lot from you but you need to chill out. Just because it does not work for you does not make it a bad program.

The program makes my plane much less risky and gives the ability to use it more for Dry lease without worrying about engines. That alone makes up for the cast. I can Dry lease for 50 hours a year and it covers way more than my minimum Williams program cost.

So again not one size fits all and I am very happy I have engines on Program. I didn't need it on my Pistons as the max Risk was only $100K. But on a jet its much higher.

Mike

I don't view Mike's comments about the Williams program as him bashing Williams. Mike is an engineer and he generally presents facts with data to back it up. The fact is, the Williams engine is, over the course of TBO, substantially more expensive to own and operate compared to engines where a competitive market exists for HSI and Overhaul services. I think Mike has a valid point.

If you read what Mike wrote, he actually doesn’t bash the program at all!
Quite the contrary. He’s said multiple times (including very recently on this thread) that if he ever bought a 501 it’ll be a stallion. He also mentioned that he almost pulled the trigger on a super s2.
What Mike harps on, which is mostly accurate, is that with a Williams powered airplane you’re under Williams total control. Can’t argue with that.
But hey, everything’s a compromise…

300 hours of flying is $100K to Williams. So after 3 years, you could have $100K in the bank if you self fund.

$100K unscheduled events happen rarely.


There are plenty of other things on a jet that can cost you $100K suddenly. How are you managing those risks?

Suppose, for example, a starter generator bearing goes and trashes the insides of the engine. Guess what, that isn't covered since the starter generator is an airframe supplied component and it caused the engine damage. The program doesn't cover all possible catastrophic engine events.

The main risk with the Williams program is Williams itself. They have absolute control over your engines, and thus over your airframe as well.

Imagine: "Private Equity firm ABC announces acquisition of Williams International". A PE firm seeks getting the most revenue from the investment. How could Williams generate that? Hmmm.

The problem with a benevolent dictator is that they eventually aren't in power any more.

Mike C.

Those are hard numbers to get.

I've heard anywhere from $200K to $600K for a JT15D-5A. The lower end is a routine overhaul (no major findings, no time/cycle outs) at an independent economical shop. The upper end is boutique places like PWC or Dallas and still assumes no truly major time outs.

If you have time out parts, say impeller, costs can rise significantly. New impeller is $250K or so. A complete set of HT blades close to $200K. And so forth. You want to be paying attention to the records for the life remaining on life limited parts.

JSSI has a program for JT15D which run about $250/hour per engine. More expensive than Williams, and not economical viable, IMO. Few operators are on this program. JSSI is charging a healthy premium, and their fine print is troublesome in some cases.

Mike C.

If people are ticked off enough, Williams will adjust.

It seems that enough people are happy with Williams that Williams feels no pressure to change the status quo.

Mike C

It’s not a 1:1 equation.

If I put 300 hours on a non program engine the engine is now worth 300 hours less.

When I put 300 hours on a program engine and pay the program I am paying to keep the engine the same value. So yes it cost me more but I get something for my money.

If I put the $100k into my bank or to Williams I still get value. I don’t mind paying some for the peace of mind.

Mike

But you have $100K in the bank. Those 300 hours aren't a decrease of $100K in market value, so you are positive balance.


Not clear to me that is perfectly in balance.

In any case, your hull value decreased due to hours on the airframe regardless of engine value.


At the end of the TBO cycle:

Off program: $1.65M in the bank (plus accumulated investment return over the years), run out engines on the plane. Even if the plane is worth $0, which it won't be even if considered salvage, you could have an overall positive balance.

On program: $1.65M paid to Williams (plus lost investment return), run out engines on the plane, "free" overhaul coming. Even with a zero time engine, doubtful the airplane is worth what you paid to Williams, so you are negative balance.

The above analysis could change radically with changes in Williams terms. For example, they increase yearly minimums to 200 hours and you have to pay for 50 unused hours every year. Or they simply raise rates to $200/hr/engine, which they can do anytime they want. If Williams does any of that, you suffer a double whammy, increased hourly costs and your market value suffers since the next buyer carries a higher burden to maintain the program.


You've traded mechanical worry for contractual worry. I would have more faith in the machine than I do in the business people at Williams.

I avoid any arrangement where there is a dramatic imbalance of power between the customer and the vendor. Owning a Williams engine is one such case. The customer is inextricably tied to a virtual value of past payments to Williams that can easily go poof.

In my case, I'd rather use my resourcefulness to deal with a problem with one of my JT15D-5A engines than to be powerless in a contract with Williams.

Mike C.

Here's the bottom line. In aviation, there are always compromises and new technology is very expensive.

The great thing is from a "run-out" Citation 501SP to a fully funded, TAP Blue CJ4+ there's a seat for everyone!

When it comes to engine programs, there are two different ways to look at it, I get both arguments. The reality is that Williams builds a very efficient engine, it is new technology, they are a solid company with excellent customer service and what they charge for their engine program is in line with what everyone else charges.

The fact that they've created a captive audience is what it is, I get not liking it... thankfully there are other options.

There's thousands of airplanes with Williams engines on them, really smart people decided to buy those airplanes. Plus, there are thousands more Citations, Lears and Phenoms with Pratt engines on them that are on ESP. Thousands more Lears, Hawkers, Challengers, etc. with MSP.

The only difference between Williams and the other guys is that Williams is the only option and with the other engines you have more, but still very limited options.

The options for JT15D are not limited.

I can put it on program if I want or not. I think there is more than one, JSSI, Pratt, etc. I can even buy just unscheduled insurance if I want to get that piece of mind without the main expense.

I can have Pratt overhaul it. I can have top line shop, like Dallas, do it. Or I can get a basic overhaul at places like Hale or others.

I can buy used engines and hang them on my airframe.

I can sell my engines to others.

I can collect used parts and used engines for parts in the open market.

I can fly the engine past TBO.

I won't get a surprise change in terms or prices for a program.

None of the above are options for Williams.

NONE!

The characterization that there are minor differences between the ecosystems of Williams and JT15D is just wrong. It is night and day.

The only choice you get with Williams is whether you want to overpay for your engine work continuously, or in one big chunk at the end.

Mike C.