BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 19:47

Username Protected wrote:

With all of this debate on acquiring SP status, I'll throw a little cold water on the whole idea. Despite the training and authorization, no SP operation will be as safe as a trained two-man crew, but it will be cheaper.

Paul.

Hot button. Here we go.... :bud:

You fly that 182 SP no? You would agree it is less safe than flying it with a crew no? But you still do it right? Just sayin. Ya...I know jets are more complex. But which aircraft is safer in the hands of a capable pilot? So I assume if you are going to fly one SP best to fly the safer one SP no? :whiteflag:

One more thing...I think flying SP or as a crew and the safety is way more a function of how you got your flying time. If most came in a crew environment then you should stick with a crew for whatever airplane you fly. If most was gained SP then by all means fly SP. My experience is a retired 121 would not be a good candidate for flying jet SP. Every guy stepping into that scenario as halved his resources. Not smart.

:bud:

Sorry this has been debated ad nauseum. Couldn’t resist.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 19:56

Great weekend I trained my mentor's brother with 700 hours TT for 10 hours this weekend he passed his single pilot checkride. It can be done. I'd be ok sitting in the back with him flying. More importantly I got 25+ instrument approaches supervising and feel more comfortable and safer than I've ever felt. Instructing makes you a better pilot. In 12 hours of brutal airplane flying the only thing that failed was an hsi flux gate that was replaced for $109. The Eclipse flux gate is $5k used or $10k new if you can get one.

The sign of a failed flux gate is pretty simple; the HSI magnetic compass is off 20-30 degrees. Equally, if you note your Klingon not tracking well with NAV mode engaged; that's also a sign of failure. Look at the flux gate and notice oil dripping out of it? It's dead. The panel screws holding it on must be brass and not ferrous. It's easy to strip these soft screws when removing them so don't be surprised if you have to drill a few out.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 20:07

Username Protected wrote:

With all of this debate on acquiring SP status, I'll throw a little cold water on the whole idea. Despite the training and authorization, no SP operation will be as safe as a trained two-man crew, but it will be cheaper.

Paul.

Hot button. Here we go.... :bud:

You fly that 182 SP no? You would agree it is less safe than flying it with a crew no? But you still do it right? Just sayin. Ya...I know jets are more complex. But which aircraft is safer in the hands of a capable pilot? So I assume if you are going to fly one SP best to fly the safer one SP no? :whiteflag:

Oh more thing...I think flying SP or as a crew and the safety is way more a function of how you got your flying time. If most came in a crew environment then you should stick with a crew for whatever airplane you fly. If most was gained SP then by all means fly SP. My experience is a retired 121 would not be a good candidate for flying jet SP. Every guy stepping into that scenario as halved his resources. Not smart.

:bud:

Sorry this has been debated ad nauseum. Couldn’t resist.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 20:28

Paul:

Just taking your bait cause what fun is it if everyone just nods in agreement.

Not sure if it has been debated in this thread but that’s why the search function exists.

This is just a Hatfield vs McCoys/ Arabs vs Israel kind of thing./ Old Testament kind of thing.

Neither side will broadly convince the other.

That said I did get one anti SP retired 121 guy to convert. All he flies is SP now. I want that accomplishment on my tombstone. May it not come too early or because I was SP. :lol:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 20:42

Username Protected wrote:

Paul:

Just taking your bait cause what fun is it if everyone just nods in agreement.

Not sure if it has been debated in this thread but that’s why the search function exists.

This is just a Hatfield vs McCoys/ Arabs vs Israel kind of thing./ Old Testament kind of thing.

Neither side will broadly convince the other.

That said I did get one anti SP retired 121 guy to convert. All he flies is SP now. I want that accomplishment on my tombstone. May it not come too early or because I was SP. :lol:

Mark,

We come from different perspectives, and I wouldn't characterize the debate as "Hatfields and McCoys."

As for your retired 121 pilot flying SP, let's just say not all pilots, 121 or no, think the same.

I can understand wanting to have the SP on your ticket, nothing wrong with that, we just disagree on the SP vs two-crew issue.

In my previous post I mentioned some the benefits of multiple crewmembers, but adding another benefit would be independent analysis of a situation, with independent schools of thought.

Routinely, a captain will consult with the other crewmembers in assessing situations that arise. Then the situation gets the analysis of the combined experience of two pilots, or even three. SP is flown with the combined experience and assessment of one.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 20:46

I'm with Paul, the "right" copilot is worth more than all the latest gear.

If the SIC is not "right" they diminish my SP capabilities significantly.

Bottom line for the SP lot...watch who you take upfront.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 20:50

By Hatfield’s and MCCoys I mean it is an age old battle, filled with emotion and it’s not something that will result in a lot of movement

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 21:03

Username Protected wrote:

By Hatfield’s and MCCoys I mean it is an age old battle, filled with emotion and it’s not something that will result in a lot of movement

Thanks, I got ya Mark. I really don't have much emotion invested in this debate. I've seen where a two-man or three-man crew airplane can eat your lunch if combined efforts of the crew didn't put out a max level performance based on their experience, supplementing the captain. I have no doubt that an SP jet can eat somebody's lunch with a lot more ease than a jet with a crew.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 21:37

Username Protected wrote:

Any typed/current captain can sign you off as an SIC. Does”t have to be an ATP or CFI. Take the sign off and go to the FSDO and get your SIC endorsement. Then you can log SIC time which counts towards turbojet experience. However, the aircraft must be certified two pilots to be able to logSIC. So any SP variant or say 525 you can’t log SIC time. However, if you are the sole manipulator and there is a CFI in the right seat you can log the time as dual in SP certified aircraft. But being the sole manipulator in such an aircraft with no CFI aboard doesn’t count for FAA purposes. I would still record it and report it to the insurance company. See what they say

Mike, you can save a bunch of time and money from SIMCOM by signing up for their SIC experienced type rating. Jesse did it in a week. Huge. All sim based. So you say you don’t need an SIC...true enough but having one cuts course duration in half. So depending on how you Value your time...

You will need a commercial to get the SPE as you point out. I, like you, was merely private. Soooo I studied and took the written, flew with Lockhart in my 310 to get my sign off. Did the oral, and the checkride. Total PITA but now I get paid so that’s cool. Promptly flew to Salt Lake for the CJP winter meeting...had dinner with Don Baker and his bride and then they crashed 3 days later. Sobering. ( I did all this after having gotten my type as a private, but not SPE. It is a big ask going straight to SPE in a jet but ymmv. Flew for a year. And then got the commercial.)

Now I am getting the ATP because 1) it’s cool, 2) insurance 3)contract jobs often require it, 4) I have two buddies with 135 ops that would like to have me in the bull pen when im available. Obv even a larger PITA.

Thanks Buddy

You summarized what I was trying to say succinctly. While I only typed as an SIC I have two pilots that we fly with well over 10k flying the 550 both of which are CFI ii. What I was offering Mike was to fly with highly experienced guys in the two and get your SIC which allows Mike to log the time as dual received. I guess I need to be a little more clear.

And I need a swap to clean fish and restock the beer cooler.

Gary

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 22:38

I'm looking at a Citation 500. The broker says that it has an STC from Sierra that allows SP without the need for a SP waiver. Has anyone heard of such an STC?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 23:07

Username Protected wrote:

By Hatfield’s and MCCoys I mean it is an age old battle, filled with emotion and it’s not something that will result in a lot of movement

Thanks, I got ya Mark. I really don't have much emotion invested in this debate. I've seen where a two-man or three-man crew airplane can eat your lunch if combined efforts of the crew didn't put out a max level performance based on their experience, supplementing the captain. I have no doubt that an SP jet can eat somebody's lunch with a lot more ease than a jet with a crew.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 23:09

Username Protected wrote:

I'm looking at a Citation 500. The broker says that it has an STC from Sierra that allows SP without the need for a SP waiver. Has anyone heard of such an STC?

I don’t think your broker is correct.The Factory SP aircraft are 501SP and 551. Note I said 501SP because there were some 501s that were not SP from the factory. A 551 is a 550 that is SP from the factory. Clear as mud? The 500s had the Sperry SPZ 500 AP/FD after sn 275 (I think). Prior to that Bendix FGS 70. You don’t really want that.

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 23:23

Username Protected wrote:

Despite the training and authorization, no SP operation will be as safe as a trained two-man crew, but it will be cheaper.

I can't afford to be any safer than SP in a legacy Citation.

Analogously, the airlines can't afford to fly 4 engine airplanes, so they have chosen the cheaper twins.

Ultimately, all of aviation is about trading safety for cost.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 23:29

Username Protected wrote:

I'm with Paul, the "right" copilot is worth more than all the latest gear.

And often cost more than the gadgets and is less reliable, from a mission stand point.

Having to hire an SIC is chartering a human with all the annoyances that come with chartering. That kills much of the flexibility of having your own airplane.

I'd love to have an SIC in the air, on the ground it creates major complexity and cost.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2018, 23:39

Username Protected wrote:

Mike, you can save a bunch of time and money from SIMCOM by signing up for their SIC experienced type rating.

I don't follow.

This doesn't get me to having a type rating, which I will need. The type rating course is $12K, they charge $9K for the SIC course, so I'm not seeing the savings.

Quote:

Jesse did it in a week. Huge. All sim based.

I've met pilots who did the full type course, single pilot, in about a week. Simcom says 14 days, but they always overestimate. I expect to be on the shorter end of the time needed.

Quote:

You will need a commercial to get the SPE as you point out.

Yup, will start working on that, too. Got the test book, have someone lined up to train/test me in the MU2.

Quote:

It is a big ask going straight to SPE in a jet but ymmv.

I got 10 years and 1400 hours in an MU2 flying on business everywhere, vast majority of it SP, often into busy metro areas. I'm an SP turbine veteran.

Compared to going from a 210 to the MU2, MU2 to Citation should be a lot less challenging.

Mike C.

Citation 501sp