Thank you Sal. I miss the Mooneys! But it sure is hard to go back once you start burning Jet A right!?

It is clear you have a promotional strategy of creating threads just to show off your supposed expertise. This thread is another case.

As to older Citations, I find them CHEAPER to maintain than the newer planes. There is a lot of experience in smaller shops with them, there is ample supply of salvage parts, the planes are simpler in design, the planes uses simpler more commodity components, and the planes have less onerous and expensive inspections.

There is not much that can go wrong with a legacy Citation that hasn't happened before and people know about.

With the newer planes, you have fewer choices, in some cases, only the factory can service certain things, a lot fewer options for parts, the parts are more expensive, and so forth.

This is clear when you look at the engines. A JT15D can be serviced at several independent shops. An FJ44 can't. You can find used JT15D parts such as HT blades, impellers, etc. You can't find any of that for an FJ44, and even if you could, you couldn't use it since you are forced to have it serviced at Williams for any work at that depth. You can fly a JT15D past TBO. You can't do that for an FJ44. All of this adds up to much more cost fort he FJ44 operator than for the JT15D.

There are other examples, but there are a large number of us legacy Citation owners who are flying much cheaper than the folks with the 525 series despite what people like you may say. I see repeated examples of this come up on the Citations pilot's forum.

Older does not automatically mean more expensive to maintain, it can mean less.

Mike C.

It is clear you have a promotional strategy of creating threads just to show off your supposed expertise. This thread is another case.

As to older Citations, I find them CHEAPER to maintain than the newer planes. There is a lot of experience in smaller shops with them, there is ample supply of salvage parts, the planes are simpler in design, the planes uses simpler more commodity components, and the planes have less onerous and expensive inspections.

There is not much that can go wrong with a legacy Citation that hasn't happened before and people know about.

With the newer planes, you have fewer choices, in some cases, only the factory can service certain things, a lot fewer options for parts, the parts are more expensive, and so forth.

This is clear when you look at the engines. A JT15D can be serviced at several independent shops. An FJ44 can't. You can find used JT15D parts such as HT blades, impellers, etc. You can't find any of that for an FJ44, and even if you could, you couldn't use it since you are forced to have it serviced at Williams for any work at that depth. You can fly a JT15D past TBO. You can't do that for an FJ44. All of this adds up to much more cost fort he FJ44 operator than for the JT15D.

There are other examples, but there are a large number of us legacy Citation owners who are flying much cheaper than the folks with the 525 series despite what people like you may say. I see repeated examples of this come up on the Citations pilot's forum.

Older does not automatically mean more expensive to maintain, it can mean less.

Mike C.

I almost got sucked into the Williams servitude when I was looking at a converted SII. The V was a far better end result. I would be really mad about paying the Williams tax right now, plus the fact the hourly minimums don't really work out for my use profile.

I initially failed to truly understand the benefits of TRs and JT15D service. Now I know. The single biggest surprise of my jet transition was how little runway my V uses. My MU2 would rarely get me into airports that V cannot go. I have essentially lost no runway capability with the change.


There are about 540 V and Ultra made. The Ultra will see a great jump in utility (and price) when there is a new autopilot for it. Then you can ditch the Primus 1000 screens and install a full Garmin panel. Those planes will potentially lose 500 lbs empty weight. I would have bought an Ultra except for the JT15D-5D HT blade issue and the lack of Garminization options. There appears to be an HT blade rework choice now (again, third party, not something Williams will ever have), and a new autopilot is in the works, so Ultras are gong to be a great choice in the future.

What is considered "high time" moves. Having done a 10,000 hour inspection on my V, it was a total non issue. If buyers run away because it is 5 digits, great, I can get a plane a lot cheaper because of that. With the cost of one HSI, I have 15+ years of usage for me in the plane, which is more than I will need. Even if I part it out at the end, that was a deal, and I doubt it will come to that.


The market is influenced by opinions that don't always match facts. There are a lot of misguided opinions out there.

My plane was so cheap to get because it was COVID, the owners were frustrated by constant issues (ultimately due to poor service by Textron), and the general opinion spread by people like you that older is more expensive and unreliable. They bought an Encore.

What people perceive and what is real differ often these days. For the discerning buyer who can cut through the noise, they can find a good deal as I did. This is also how I ended up in an MU2. Nearly every airplane I have owned increased in value substantially after I bought it.

My basic message: don't believe someone just because they claim to be an expert, do you own research and find the real truth.

Mike C.

As one with several thousand hours in CE500s, as one with an A&P and having attended CE500 Maint School (albeit many years ago) and as one who managed the Cesscom Maint Program on CE500s, may I interject a couple comments-

While I did in fact work for a huge multinational company that had little holes in the ground pumping out $$$ bills we went exclusively to the factory service center. By following the Cesscom program we had only one flight in 3 years cancelled for a maint related issue. Dependable- Yes!

The airframe is dead simple, the engines plentiful w/ parts. The performance is (as Rolls Royce says about their horse power rating)- adequate. There are several smaller shops who know the airplane and can maintain it to very high standards, The caveat here is the owner and how he wants to maintain the airplane more than the maintenance shop. Their are examples in any fleet of good and poorly maintained airframes - Mooneys to Boeings.
On my Type ride I had to use a cargo CE500 that was a complete dog and we lost pressurization on the ride (just turned it off and completed the Type ride). Our company airplane was the diametrically opposite in maintenance quality.

For me if I was in the twin turbine small airframe market I'd look at CE500s before King Airs but that's just me. The V model is the good one and the market seems to agree. But even an older model has a lot to offer.

The price of entry is lower IF you want to pay the extra fuel bill and it can be maintained at a reasonable level with proper owner input. Like any airframe - if the owner just drops it off and says- "fix it" who knows what will happen. We see it all the time in first time owner annuals going sky high in price and then owner remorse sets in. Like anything else- knowledge is power and is inversely proportional to money spent.

Again- pay me now or pay me later Its always the same.

Had a hydraulic pump go out. Textron wanted $41K (of which $36K was a new pump and adapter kit to make it fit since they don't have my PN any more, this would condemn me to always use the new pump from then on). I declined.

I fixed it locally with a salvage pump ($200) and a few hours labor ($1400) and some misc expenses ($200). I now have kept my same PN pump (no mods or left/right asymmetry) and it cost me only $1800 to solve.

BTW, the service center said they wouldn't install the salvage pump I found, only solution they offered was the mod to a new style.


A nationwide multiple location high end branded maintenance shop. Textron, Stevens, Duncan, etc. You know who they are.


There is more than one way to correctly fix a problem and service centers choose the expensive way.


The list of errors on my plane, which was exclusively maintained by Textron before I bought it, fills more than a page.

Case in point, the right engine had the wrong ignitor leads. They had been wrong for years, missed multiple times by Textron. This was found by my local mechanic whom you do not think so highly of.

I've never had problems getting my plane back in service. Indeed, having a local shop greatly helps with getting the plane fixed versus having to fly it to a service center.


My mechanics know what they are doing, they just don't have policies which cost me a fortune.

My plane is in FAR better shape than when I bought it as I have fixed literally dozens of latent faults left in it from past work or lack of care. I have saved literally well over $100,000 using my local guys and being involved in the maintenance decisions.

My one use of a major service center due to being AOG at the time, Jet East, cost me $6,558 to replace one leaking hydraulic line. They require two guys, at $200/hour each, to come to my plane that was 30 minutes away from their shop, when only one guy can fit in the aft compartment at a time. The work was about 4 man hours of actual time on task, but they charged me a dozen hours for the mechanic to drive from 6 hours away instead of from the nearby shop.

Had this been repaired at my shop, probably about $1500 all in.

There are those who think jets can only be maintained by excessively priced shops. That is clearly not the case. Those folks just don't know how to get it done otherwise. The Citation is easy to work on.

If someone takes a 172 to a Textron service center, what do you think will happen? They will get a huge bill. Most people with 172s don't do that for the same reason I don't take my Citation to one.

Mike C.

It spent the first 29 years of its life being serviced exclusively by Textron, a part 145 repair station. I still find issues to this day and the CESCOM was a mess, too, with parts the plane has missing and parts the plane doesn't have still on it.


What I thought I was hiring was one mechanic to come from their nearby shop to install a line I had bought. I expected it would take at most a day.

What I got was them sending two mechanics (for a job only one guy can fit) from further away that the travel and hotel charges dominated the repair bill and it ended up being $6558 for what was basically one man day at most of effort. If they had conspired to make it as expensive as they could, I doubt it could have been worse. They also padded the bill with hours they didn't actually spend.


The AOG hydraulic event was replacing a line with a new part from Textron. It was $600 for a line that could have been made from $30 of parts with a tubing bender and a flaring tool, but those skills are long gone among jet mechanics, it seems.


Replacing an aluminum hydraulic line is not a component repair so there is no component repair manual involved. It was done per the MM, like my local not part 145 shop could do. Nothing special about a part 145 shop in this case, outside the invoice.


I take it you think $6558 for one man day of legitimate work is reasonable.

When it is your money on the line, you might change your tune.

BTW, the original invoice was for $8,358. They charged me for 21 hours of labor on the plane and 14 hours of travel and 2 nights of meals and hotels. This from a shop 25 miles away from the airplane but they sent guys from further away. When I pointed out there wasn't that many hours from when I called to the when the plane was done, and no way they drove 14 man hours for this job, they adjusted it. They padded the bill, clearly. The team was at the airplane for only 7.5 hours (15 man hours) total, so the 21 hours of task work was clearly wrong.

Had this line failed at my local shop, it would have been fixed for about $1500 in labor (mostly spill clean up) and my local shop knows how to make lines. Had a transient airplane had this fail at my local airport, my shop would not have charged them more just because they are AOG.

If this happens again, I will not be calling JetEast.

I have attached the original invoice they sent me. No need to wonder if this is real or not. I wrote up the entire experience here:

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=215280

This is easily my worst AOG experience in my entire flying career. The replaced line works and I have had no further hydraulic issues since. Had JetEast charged me honestly, I would be entirely happy with their work.

Mike C.

Too much experience? Is that a thing? Is it a fault? Should I slow down or just shut up? I think that’ll make some great lyrics. Someone should record it and place it in the music thread.
You guys are cracking me up. You should start coordinating these events and sell tickets. Not my punch bowl, not my turd, and not wanting to get splashed. Apologies in advance. I love this bar

The shop sent two guys from 6 hours away for safety. If one guy is in the hellhole and something unforeseen should happen, someone else needs to be there to provide assistance. And no, they are not going to trust a pilot they don’t know from Adam to be the second guy. And they probably had guys drive 6 hours because all the qualified guys at the closer facility were already involved in projects for other customers. I guess they should have told the other customer’s, “your plane’s not going to be ready as promised because I had to pulled two guys off of it because Mike’s plane sprung a hydro leak”. Obviously, what Jet East should have done, was tell you to go pound sand, and left your Citation there to rot.

All true.

I’ll just add that its a small industry and the next time he needs them it will probably be “pound sand”

JetEast, now West Star , is a good company, staffed with good people. The reason Jet East could do it, is because that m’s their core business, supporting NetJets, including AOG. They charged Mike the same amount they would’ve charged NetJets.

It’s extremely easy for someone with limited experience with a vendor to come on here and bash the company, as I’ve said before, all these maintenance facilities are apt to disappoint. That is due enlarge part to the fact that they are overworked and overwhelmed. Remember, that they have more business than they can take care of, so they are going to take care of the people that play nice with them.

And here’s a warning to all turbine aircraft operators, it’s about to get a whole lot worse. The Textron service centers have basically chased away the majority of their pre-purchase inspection business, all those pre-buys have to go to the shops that Mike is bashing, they are already at capacity.

If you need any work done, especially a Prebuy, between now and the end of the year, you better get on it now.

Speaking of having more work than you know what to do with……does anyone know Mike’s N-number. If he’s ever AOG on the field were I work, I will ensure no one attempts to pad the bill.

The specifically have AOG services and tout their proximity and availability. If they can't actually deliver on that promise, that's their issue not mine.

Here is the charge for travel:

14 hours and $588 in expenses (hotel, mileage, per diem) for a guy to come from PVD to LWM, a 1.5 hour drive. Explain to me how that turned into 14 man hours. It should have been at most 4 hours round trip. That was for ONE GUY, the other was from the local shop at KBED.

The actual contact time at the airplane was 7.5 hours, 15 man hours. They charged 21 man hours for that.

All told, they charged 37 man hours for a job that was 1.5 actual elapsed days from start to finish. How do you stuff almost 5 man days into 1.5 days?


Their AOG service webpage says this:

"No matter where you are, our nationwide network of more than 200 rapid-response aircraft on-ground experts are on standby 24 hours a day, 365 days per year, and will be ready when you need them."

If they can't provide the service they advertise, then they should tell you. I would find other means.

I take it you would have paid the $8400 invoice and been happy about it. I guess you don't mind being heavily overcharged for hours not actually spent on your task.

Mike C.

Who know how to turn a small job into a big one by padding hours.

I am amazed you defend such obviously unethical business practices.


That explains why NetJets costs so much. To replace my usage with them would be close to $500K per year!


Sounds like a great reason not to use the shops you typically recommend.

Aircraft maintenance seems to have become bimodal. You have the big nationwide networks who are consolidating like FBOs (witness WestStar buying JetEast), and you have the local shops. Not much in between. Anybody who advocates for the big MRO chains should be the type of person who happily uses Signature and Atlantic at every airport they can. That is exactly the same economic dynamic involved, pay excessive amounts for the service you get.

Mike C.

Who know how to turn a small job into a big one by padding hours.

I am amazed you defend such obviously unethical business practices.


That explains why NetJets costs so much. To replace my usage with them would be close to $500K per year!


Sounds like a great reason not to use the shops you typically recommend.

Aircraft maintenance seems to have become bimodal. You have the big nationwide networks who are consolidating like FBOs (witness WestStar buying JetEast), and you have the local shops. Not much in between. Anybody who advocates for the big MRO chains should be the type of person who happily uses Signature and Atlantic at every airport they can. That is exactly the same economic dynamic involved, pay excessive amounts for the service you get.

Mike C.

In other words, your buyers are using the large shops as a battering ram against the sellers. They know the large shops will find gratuitous nit picking issues with which to leverage the seller.

In other words, the anti customer policies and behaviors of the large shops have been weaponized by the buyers.


In that we agree. A trusted small shop can deliver better results for a lot less money than the big guys. The big guys don't need you as a customer, they have so many. The small shop wants to keep you as a customer and do good work.


That's more a statement about the size of the owner's wallet than the actual needs of the airplane. A 5 year old CJ4 that the owner paid $12M doesn't care that much about the maintenance cost.


You should not be so presumptive about other people's experience when trying to discredit them.


Oh, so it gets worse? That's not really a stellar defense of those large shops.

The $450K phase 1-5 invoice on a Citation V was WestStar, BTW, who bought JetEast. The owner has vowed never to go back and felt they shafted him on making things as expensive as possible, including cutting the owner out of the decision process on how things got repaired.

Mike C.