All interesting posts following my original post. I couldn't help but to think of a factory authorized dealer on the east coast of the US for both Piper and Pilatus who shared with me an algorithm he used for a new customer on the planes he represented. With a newly minted PPL and obviously no IFR rating he would have steered him into an Archer or Warrior not the M600.
Based on the responses I have read here the right to buy whatever you want and earn whatever profit you are able outweigh common sense.
This individual was sold the plane not for a pro-pilot to fly for him but rather for him to fly it himself albeit at an altitude of not more than 17,500'. Remember this incident that totaled the plane was on his very first solo flight. Not dual but SOLO.

The Citation IV was to be a stretch of the Citation III, but the project was canceled and none were ever sold.

So he must have had something else than a Citation IV.

Mike C.

Would Cirrus refuse to deliver the plane if the buyer declined to complete their training course?

Would Cirrus refuse to deliver the plane if the buyer declined to complete their training course?

I don't think so.

Many years ago my wife and I stopped at Afton, Wyoming (on the way to Jackson) for fuel. While inside the beautiful FBO, the young manager talked to us and wanted to show us around "town" and try to get us interested in the Home/Hangar development on the field. His was the first home built there and he was soon to live in it.
He drove us all around the airport and Fly in development. He was so proud of it all and temporarily lived with his family in a Hangar/Living space behind the FBO. He wanted to show us his plane and meet the family. He led us into the "man door" in the side of the Hangar and left us alone while he said hello to his wife. In the Hangar was his new purchase.....a L39 Albatross jet. During the drive around he told us he had a little over 200 hours (if I remember correctly). He had just bought the L39 and had flown with the previous owner till they were both satisfied in his skills. He had not flown jets before IIRC.
I was astounded and terribly saddened by all of this. As he was still off with his family, I said to my wife that this fellow, nice as he is, is going to kill himself quickly. Should I say anything???
When he came back in to ask how we liked his new ride....I asked him if I could give him my thoughts. He said 'sure". Told him to not fly this plane at all, to sell it immediately and be happy with his little family and dreams for the airport and his future. Told him he was very far away from competency in that plane and please get rid of it. He assured me everything was just fine...no worries.
Read about him killing himself in that plane at the Reno Air races the next year.

I'd offer that it's present reasons... not future. The CSIP and the other training programs Cirrus offers is because of future liability issues??? And they are doing it because they are concerned manufacturers? In the words of Lee Corso (college football fans know Lee)..... "Not so fast, my friend."

Cirrus was (and is) selling to everyone who would cough up the cash... only after 172 and Warrior drivers who really didn't really have to carefully manage speeds and thus couldn't handle the hot rod did the Cirrus training programs truly get emphasized. Cirrus was getting hurt..

Way before my time, but probably not terribly far different that when some company called Beechcraft rolled out a true pilot's airplane, the V tail Bonanza that started killing Doctors (and others with cash), did the BPPP programs come about. (I'm guessing on that one, but the V tail was a game-changer when introduced)

Funny how a few lawsuits can change some practices.

Old timers.. remember the NY Yankees Thurman Munson? Who augured in and killed himself his Cessna Citation (Akron Ohio)? The airplane performed flawlessly. Even the widow's attorneys admitted that it wasn't the airplane's fault. I do not remember the settlement amount (I do not think it was public), but is was an a$$load of money back then. The crash happened in '79. Case settled in '84. Cessna paid some cash... Even if they didn't settle, how much do you think they paid in attorney's fees?

So, how has the legal liability environment changed in the 37 years since then? LMFAO... But we can pretend that in this industry our liability ends when we sign the document and hand over the keys.

Would you sell a car to a drunk? Get in writing that he will not fly without a copilot until he has an IFR ticket and 500 hours, 50 hours Type. Besides the fact he might have children on board, it is my experience anybody can sue anybody for anything. And crying widows go over well in court. You don’t need the liability or the sleepless nights.

It's sad that Brad crashed, but he could not possibly have been a 200-hour pilot. You have to be instrument rated and have a minimum of 1000 hours with 500 PIC to even get the L39 type rating.

I bought a Pitts with one hour of tailwheel time. I've never had a seller ask me about my experience or credentials, only about method of payment.

Now that I think of it, the guy I sold the Pitts to had no Pitts time. He flew it away from my airport solo!

What’s that old saying? There’s a fool born every minute...

Flew a pitts away? You weren’t in the wrong but his thought processes are sure surprising.

I was genuinely worried for him. But he had it several years before selling. Not only did he buy it and fly it away solo, but he flew it several states away! He had tailwheel time though, and I guess he was a pretty good stick. On the demo flight with me in it, I wouldn't let him land it.

I'm very thankful that we have not had this issue with a client, though we have had a couple of times where the insurance company got to be the bad guy.

We all like to complain about the insurance companies, but they probably save more lives and keep aviation safer than any other governing body.

You are so going to get banned for saying that...

I would view this less as a question of the customer's freedom and more about my freedom to make good aviation decisions based on my experience as a pilot and safety systems guy.

I would share with the customer how the USAF started using the T-38 for phase 3 training at UPT in in 1962, replacing the venerable T-33 then serving in that role.

The mishap rate was horrific, over 7 per 100,000 of flying time. They quickly moved to an "instruments first" syllabus in 1964. This was done primarily for syllabus flow and student confidence, but the side effect was an immediate and dramatic drop in the mishap and fatality rate in the airplane.

We would also talk about the accident rate for VMC rated pilots in IMC weather, particularly when higher performance airplanes are involved.

The point of all of this would be to convince the customer that a bespoke instrument rating course in his new airplane would be a great way to not end up in a smoking hole. I would make it a three-week, composite simulator, then airplane course, followed by flying with a mentor and short cycle recurrent training until 100 hours in type was met.

Any successful businessman or woman can easily understand the concept transfer that you don't become successful in business by half-assing your performance and hoping for the best, also applies to high performance airplanes and unforgiving environments.

"Do you owe it to your family and the people on the ground underneath it to be the most qualified aviator you can be, or do you feel lucky?"

Academic at best, I'm not a salesman, I'm a professional pilot.

For those interested:

Mishap stats:

https://www.safety.af.mil/Portals/71/do ... s/T-38.pdf

"Instruments first"

https://books.google.com/books?id=erI3A ... 38&f=false