Don, its quite possible I'm just not "pilot enough" for them....

I talked to George's partner Tim about this issue when I bought my plane years ago and there were too many issues that weren't known for me to do it. Perhaps they've resolved those by now?

I think Don's two recent longer posts inadvertently highlight what I don't like about Cirrus and the Cirrus culture.

1) The reference about Cirrus betting on 94UL and going with the lower compression on the Turbo engines. I'm fairly certain that was done a time or two well before Cirrus existed.

2) "Perspective" It's G1000 with a few hooks and extras added. But at it's heart, it's Garmin G1000. It just smacks of pretense, to me, to call it something other than G1000.

Don't get me wrong; If I could afford one, I would most likely buy a Cirrus over any other SEP on the market, for the same primary reason JGG is looking at one. I would join COPA, but they wouldn't like me there at all; I'd never refer to the avionics as Perspective.

I spent a few minutes poking around COPA looking for more feedback on TAT's and performance delta compared to T's. Here's a good post from an owner on real world TAT feedback and performance:


"My experience is more than a year old, as TAT installed a TN on my G2 in June of 2011. Plane had 735 Hobbs hours at the time and I’ve put 700 hours on since.

As I live in CO with home field ringed by 10K Mtns. I really love the climb ability the TN gives. Most of our flights are now at 16.5 to 17.5K where one realistically see 200+ Kts, but at a price I don’t wish to pay, that being TIT well over 1600*F. At one time the general consensus was to keep those Temps below 1640, later that was adjusted to 1625 but others were still losing exhaust manifolds.

From others experiences I now keep mine well below that benchmark, normally running 2500-2520 RPM, 16 GPH, 1570 TIT and seeing 192-195 TAS

That’s what you can realistically expect. TAT was working with a better material for the manifolds but I don’t know what they now have. 17 GPH or so will get you around 200 Kts but with much higher temps."


The current consensus for any turbo model is to keep TIT under 1600 deg. The 192-195 TAS he quotes above is about 3-4 kts faster than what I see in my 'T'. So yes, the TAT advertised performance at 85% power is notably faster than the T but guys were burning up exhaust components running that high power / temp. At a reasonable TIT and in the upper teens, the TAT TN is roughly 3-4 kts faster than the T.

Other posts on the TAT's note that earlier installations were more prone to exhaust mx issues. TAT later upgraded the materials in some of the exhaust components and reduced much of the mx concerns.

Don, that's good data.

My only firm recommendation is to ignore the G3’s and get a G5.

I picked up a friend a couple weeks ago from dropping his G3 off from annual.
He wasn’t in my plane 10 minutes before the first of many comments on how much smoother my airplane was than his.

Stronger
Higher VNE
Higher flap speeds
Higher useful load

I would pay 200k tomorrow to put this avionics system in me Aerostar.

I love my Aerostar...but,

The stress level while flying this Cirrus is just.....NIL

Perception is reality

Brad,

I don't mean to cause thread drift on my own thread, but you hit a nail squarely on the head for me. Regardless of your time, experience, and currency, the airplane and flying environment are the real drivers of "stress level". When I bought the Aerostar, Aubie, who has flying experience far beyond the "average" pilot told me that the Aerostar was the highest work load of any airplane he had ever flown. That is probably true of the Aerostar and any other pressurized piston twin as well. So many systems, so much to "go wrong" that nickel and dime your time and maintenance!

Simple is better. The 180 is such a pleasure to fly just because it does everything so effortlessly. What it doesn't provide is, #1, the ability to get over the godawful summer buildups that dominate our flying.

I just need, not necessarily want, more capability.

Jg

Well, you are a doctor who's owned a Bonanza. That's probably two strikes.

Well, you are a doctor who's owned a Bonanza. That's probably two strikes.

You give up flying....sure

Stan, why did you not get a CIrrus?

I have a G2 and love it. The Avidyne PFD/MFD works great and continues to be supported. I have the IFD 550/440 and DFC90. Flew to Virginia the other day at FL130 skirting the tops of the buildups at around 12gph. The electronics are great, but I would enjoy a turbo for more options as well as FIKI. But I have to weigh cost in the factor...how much is that worth?

One of my favorite features on the Avidyne MFD are the little popup storm cells have a bubble with an arrow direction indicator that tell you the direction of the storm and how fast it is moving in knots. Love that feature for picking my way in the summer.

A lot of folks say the G2 is the best bang for the buck in general aviation.

I love my Avidyne dream panel setup. I do not mind stepping on the rudder pedal since I do not have the yaw damper or putting in my vertical speed and altitude for my step downs or crossing altitudes. The IFD 550 has synvis (although not certified would work for a PFD failure if my L3 ESI 500 also failed)

When I start to look at G3 and in particular G5 (that is what I would go with) I just ask myself is it worth another 100 to 150K for this? But I am flat land and can avoid ice.

I came from a 1969 Cessna 182 with a 430w and single axis autopilot. Now I am a full on button pusher. I take off and land the plane sadly....it does everything else. Wifey loves it and every time I mention a Mirage she asks me if it has a chute.

[quote="Michael Penman"
Stan, why did you not get a CIrrus?[/quote]


Michael, I chose the B55 President II Colemill because it was substantially less money, more useful load, faster in the 8-12,000 ft altitude range. If I had been able to look at a G5, I don't know that I would have made the same choice. For me, the G5 was just too much money. (not saying it's not worth it, just that *I* didn't have the money to spend). I also have a bad habit of landing on...(ahem)....strips that you wouldn't put a Cirrus on....colloquially called 'duster strips'. My impression is that if you are going to be on some "rougher" strips, the Cirrus gear isn't as robust. One factory pilot told me that it wasn't recommended to land on grass...at all. Nonetheless, there is a Cirrus that lives on our grass strip.


I really like the chute. The one thing the PII does...is once you hit blue line, if you * correctly* "identify/verify/feather" it will climb out on one engine. (yes, I've done that....) in the Cirrus, it appears you have to have 1000 ft for the chute to reliably work. (yes, I know, there have been successful deployments lower than that).

I really like the useful load of the Baron. 3-4 people, plus bags, and you are safely within the W&B envelope. In the Cirri I looked at, the W&B was more limited.


I love the avionics in the Cirrus. (in the Baron I fly, it has the G600, GTN 750, good autopilot...but it's not as nice as the Cirrus Garmin package).


Not my business, but from what I see of JGG's plans....a G5 Cirrus would be outstanding. The next step up for him would be a King Air.


As I've said many times...we all go with the most capable/safest airplane we can afford.

G5’s aren’t exactly cheap for sure. NA models can be had in the high 400 range and nice T’s in the mid 500’s.

I don’t fly my Cirrus on any grass strips at all and probably never will. If one wanted to remove the wheel pants you could do it, however the pants have almost no ground clearance and would take a real beating on any grass strip. If off road missions are a regular destination, I agree Stan that the SR is a poor choice.

The SRs also have poor baggage space compared to a twin. I miss the massive cabin volume and nose compartments of my Seneca and the C340 I flew when we go on family trips.

Below is a photo of the absolute most amount of baggage you can stuff in a Cirrus with 4 people on board. I may have been able to add a stick of gum on top of this but that’s it. Still it’s not too shabby given that we had two adults, two teenage kids, these bags and 4 hrs of fuel on board and within CG limits. That’s in a bird with A/C, turbo, FIKI TKS, built in O2 and all the other goodies that come with a G5.

For long family trips, I borrowed a page out of Tony Caldwell’s playbook and got a nice durable tote on wheels that we pack with the bulky stuff and have it FedeEx’d to he FBO a couple days ahead of our trip. That has actually worked out very well. Yes, my wife is a horrible vacation packer and insists we take our own towels, extra blankets, our living room couch and the kitchen sink with us when we travel...

I’ve shared with many pilots that one of the best parts of having flown a Cirrus is my wife learned quickly how to pack less for a trip. That has led to us still being able to vacation with nothing more than carry on luggage.