10 Dec 2025, 18:28 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's  Posted: 23 Feb 2017, 22:45 |
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Joined: 11/08/12
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Location: Live in San Carlos, CA - based Hayward, CA KHWD
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Username Protected wrote: Interesting stat I was told at the factory - there has never been a failure to ignite a cruise missle engine. They have 100% reliability of Williams missle engines. Of course, TBO is only one cycle.... 
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-Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's Posted: 23 Feb 2017, 22:47 |
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Joined: 01/31/09
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Username Protected wrote: Interesting stat I was told at the factory - there has never been a failure to ignite a cruise missle engine. They have 100% reliability of Williams missle engines. Of course, TBO is only one cycle....
I don't think any come back for OH.
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Allen
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's Posted: 23 Feb 2017, 22:49 |
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Joined: 01/08/11
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Username Protected wrote: Proline 21 in the Citations will never be upgradeable to CPDLC.
That's downright rude, just like Garmin never allowing airways into their 400/500 series. I understand their marketing angle, but I see it as decidedly anti-customer. I think these companies toss tons of potential by withholding likely easy piecemeal upgrades. Of course, I could be wrong. (Sideways pictures are equally rude. Is that addressed in the FAQ? I know, I know, "go read it".) Ok.
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's Posted: 23 Feb 2017, 23:16 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Username Protected wrote: Of course, TBO is only one cycle.... :) And yet, I bet there is an engine program you can buy for it. Mike C.
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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's Posted: 23 Feb 2017, 23:19 |
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Joined: 01/11/16
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Username Protected wrote: Proline 21 in the Citations will never be upgradeable to CPDLC.
That's downright rude, just like Garmin never allowing airways into their 400/500 series. I understand their marketing angle, but I see it as decidedly anti-customer. I think these companies toss tons of potential by withholding likely easy piecemeal upgrades. Of course, I could be wrong. (Sideways pictures are equally rude. Is that addressed in the FAQ? I know, I know, "go read it".) Ok.
I am somewhat confused. Why are you posting a picture of the D-ATIS at KSJC?
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's Posted: 24 Feb 2017, 00:01 |
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Username Protected wrote: Proline 21 in the Citations will never be upgradeable to CPDLC.
That's downright rude, just like Garmin never allowing airways into their 400/500 series. I understand their marketing angle, but I see it as decidedly anti-customer. .
I think lots of corporate politics is wrapped up in it. It begins with Cessna going with Garmin and abandoning RC on all their jets. Now this decision was before Textron acquired Beechcraft. When Textron got Becchcraft they got back a vendor relationship with RC and the KA and the KA moving to PL Fusion.
RC could have walked away from the PL21 Citation fleet and turned their back on the owners and said it was Cessna's decision. Instead RC stepped up to survey Citation owner interest in PL Fusion. RC took on developing the PL Fusion STC for the CJ3 and likely 2+ independent of Cessna.
I think RC wants to show Cessna and Textron that they made the wrong decision going with Garmin. We will see what the market decides between the Garmin 3000 CJ3+ and the CJ3/2+ PL Fusion. If the PL Fusion is a success on the KA and the CJ3/2+ I would not be surprised if the next generation of Textron turbojets gets Proline avionics.
So Cessna largely abandoned the PL21 Citation fleet and would not invest in certifying upgrades like CPDLC. Cessna was developing an STC to put the G3000 cockpit into the 2+ and 3. But that effort appears to be have been stopped once RC committed to PL Fusion development. So I give credit to RC for stepping up to supporting their customers. RC decision to invest in PL Fusion for the Citation is long term better then marginal upgrades to the PL21.
Competition is good and I am glad to see RC giving Garmin stiff competition.
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Allen
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's Posted: 24 Feb 2017, 00:09 |
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Username Protected wrote: I was attempting to infer that upgrading the FMS3000 to accommodate CPDLC in the C25B, among others, would likely be a very simple upgrade for RC to provide without forcing a future move to PL Fusion. For larger aircraft with PL21, RC wants about $400,000 to equip it with ADS-B & CPDLC. It's quite a bit of additional equipment to get CPDLC capability. Just not sure that there are many CJ operators that would invest even $250,000 to get CPDLC capability. I don't see CJ's doing many legs where its advantageous to have CPDLC.
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's Posted: 24 Feb 2017, 00:21 |
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Username Protected wrote:
For larger aircraft with PL21, RC wants about $400,000 to equip it with ADS-B & CPDLC. It's quite a bit of additional equipment to get CPDLC capability. Just not sure that there are many CJ operators that would invest even $250,000 to get CPDLC capability. I don't see CJ's doing many legs where its advantageous to have CPDLC.
You need to unbundle ADS-B from CPDLC. ADS-B needs WAAS. If an arcraft does not have WAAS in can cost over $100K for ADS-B + WAAS. If you have WAAS then ADS-B can cost $35K - $60K. I don't think CPDLC should cost $300K but I have never heard a number. CPDLC is just an expample of where the FAA wants to go with Nextgen in the 2020 - 2030 timeframe. Once the industry gets past ADS-B then Nextgen wants some for of digital communication into the cockpit. If you are going to make a major commitment today for an aircraft that will be flying in 10 years then you want it to have a vendor commitment to Nextgen upgrades. PL21 in Citations does not have that commitment from Cessna or RC.
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Allen
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's Posted: 24 Feb 2017, 02:13 |
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Username Protected wrote: ADS-B needs WAAS. Only in the US. The rest of the world decided GPS without WAAS was adequate for ADS-B. They had to, they don't have WAAS coverage even if they wanted it. So some idiot at the FAA decided that WAAS sounded good as a requirement for ADS-B and now that costs us a lot of money for precision that you really don't need. Mike C.
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's Posted: 03 Mar 2017, 18:13 |
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Username Protected wrote:
For larger aircraft with PL21, RC wants about $400,000 to equip it with ADS-B & CPDLC. It's quite a bit of additional equipment to get CPDLC capability. Just not sure that there are many CJ operators that would invest even $250,000 to get CPDLC capability. I don't see CJ's doing many legs where its advantageous to have CPDLC.
You need to unbundle ADS-B from CPDLC. ADS-B needs WAAS. If an arcraft does not have WAAS in can cost over $100K for ADS-B + WAAS. If you have WAAS then ADS-B can cost $35K - $60K. I don't think CPDLC should cost $300K but I have never heard a number. CPDLC is just an expample of where the FAA wants to go with Nextgen in the 2020 - 2030 timeframe. Once the industry gets past ADS-B then Nextgen wants some for of digital communication into the cockpit. If you are going to make a major commitment today for an aircraft that will be flying in 10 years then you want it to have a vendor commitment to Nextgen upgrades. PL21 in Citations does not have that commitment from Cessna or RC.
John O,
Looks like Allen has answered that on the CJ line. 100K if you don't already have WAAS. Had a friend with CJ1+ and think I remember it being 175k to upgrade his PL21 to WAAS, not ADSb. So it is expensive and I'd guess you would need to give the serial number to a vendor and get a quote to be accurate with an estimate. Most in older CJ's haven't for that reason. Thus the price. The rural airports without ILS's you need WAAS much of the time to get below circling minimums. Easier to buy something else and some of those Rwy's are a little short for jets. Particularly when wet or snow/ice on them.....
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Chuck
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Post subject: Re: Dumping CJ3's Posted: 03 Mar 2017, 23:22 |
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Do you get any new displays for the $175k? Or does this just change the transponders to provide ADS-B out? On a legacy Citation, you can get a G600 and dual GTN-750's for that kind of money.
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