Mid cruise weight.

The fuel burn in the Citation is not as dependent on weight as the Lear is, I suspect.

The pounds by hour thing I have yet to develop since it varies with weights, length, temperature, etc. I've been using the Ultra MCT fltplan.com profile and usually beat it by 5-10%. I probably need to do something of higher fidelity when I get to flying max length legs.

I'm starting to experiment more with lower cruise power settings to see how the plane feels at altitude. Maximum range does require backing off the power some.

Mike C.

General flight planning for the II is 1300 lbs 1st hour , 1100 lbs per hour after that gets you pretty close .

How many nautical miles the first hour, how many after that?

I'm going to guess I am at 1500 lbs and 300 nm first hour, 1150 lbs and 410 nm each additional. I'll have to run tests to see how this works out (correcting for wind, of course).

Mike C.

Mike, I would guess that your distance in the first hour is greater than 300nm. In the Mustang, I get 300nm first hour and 335 each hour thereafter. I burn 650lbs the first hour, and 500 each hour thereafter. I would think your first hour distance would be in the 350-360 range. Just a guess.

Guessing at mine 300 1st hour & 365 2nd hour .

This got me to thinking about what my B200 does . . . A cursory look shows about 265 nautical miles in the first hour.

I averaged last two trips - one was into the wind and one downwind, both winds being similar. I did it by measuring over the ground, so crude. I would think the best way would a measure via TAS, somehow accounting for it's continuously increasing nature in the climb.

That was with standard climb rates for each. (Also, on the downwind departure I had the ice vanes out to till top of climb, so diminished climb/speed after about FL180.)

You get a gold star.

I checked a flight log for a recent trip in relatively calm winds.

Got to FL410 in 22 minutes, 108 nm downrange.
At 1 hour, 38 minutes at FL410, I was 348 nm downrange.

I climb above best rate climb speed to keep the speed up, usually about 30 knots or so above best climb speed. At the end you do have to give up a little speed to make it the last bit.

Cruise speed was ~395 knots ground speed, so I probably had a touch of a headwind, maybe 10-15 knots, which would put me right in the 350 to 360 nm range the first hour, and 410 knots thereafter.

I'll have to check my fuel totalizer to see what my first hour looks like but I bet 1500 lbs will be close for start, taxi, takeoff, climb, and some cruise. The takeoff fuel flow is kind of eye popping (over 3000 pph!) but fortunately doesn't last very long.

I'm kind of surprised the first hour is as good as it is since after reaching FL410, it takes a while to reach cruise speed.

The takeoff weight was 14,000 lbs, which is 1,900 lbs under gross, so a full gross situation will perform less well, of course.

I'm still learning how to fly this thing, but it keeps impressing me. I'm really happy with my choice.

I just wish fuel was cheaper but I am becoming emotionally adapted to fuel costing $5/gallon. Sigh.

Mike C.

Mike mentioned the Stec 5100 autopilot earlier, so I thought I would give an update on the flight testing.
So far everything is going very well. We are almost through with the preliminary testing and should be ready for the certification flights in the next couple of months.
No surprises so far, and the full VNAV functioning is amazing. Dollar for dollar, this is a hard package to beat if you need the seats and the range. Between our 441's with the full Garmin glass suite and the Citation V with a similar package, these two airframes pretty much check all the boxes for owner flown turbine aircraft.

This was one of the first rules of cruise control that I was taught when I started flying jets. FLY BY THE NUMBERS. Fly within the optimum speed/altitude envelope if you expect to meet published performance figures. Don't climb to the next step altitude until the aircraft is at the appropriate weight for the temperature aloft. "Forcing" a climb to a higher cruise altitude than optimum for weight/temperature only wastes fuel. Maintain optimum cruise mach by regularly pulling back the power as fuel is burned off.

Anecdote: my employer began operating a Citation III. Four pilots (myself included) were initially trained. Our chief pilot could never get the range out of the aircraft that I did. He never figured out that while it was fun to let the plane run up to MMO, strict attention to optimum speed and altitude was necessary to get published range numbers. I was able to routinely fly FAT-ROC with the CE650. The CP routinely had to stop.

Greg

This was one of the first rules of cruise control that I was taught when I started flying jets. FLY BY THE NUMBERS. Fly within the optimum speed/altitude envelope if you expect to meet published performance figures. Don't climb to the next step altitude until the aircraft is at the appropriate weight for the temperature aloft. "Forcing" a climb to a higher cruise altitude than optimum for weight/temperature only wastes fuel. Maintain optimum cruise mach by regularly pulling back the power as fuel is burned off.

Anecdote: my employer began operating a Citation III. Four pilots (myself included) were initially trained. Our chief pilot could never get the range out of the aircraft that I did. He never figured out that while it was fun to let the plane run up to MMO, strict attention to optimum speed and altitude was necessary to get published range numbers. I was able to routinely fly FAT-ROC with the CE650. The CP routinely had to stop.


Greg

I've never flown a jet, likely never will either.
But if someone wants to give me one, and pay for the cost to fly it, give me a Gulfstream please, preferably a G650ER.

That's not true with any fair analysis.

FJ44 versus JT15D series, the FJ44 saves enough fuel for the overall cost per hour to be similar.

FJ44-3A is $160/hour TAP Blue. Burns ~60 GPH in high cruise, $240/hour in fuel. $400/hour for thrust. This is a reliable number since the engine is on program

JT15D-5 is about $500K to overhaul and $150K to HSI for 3500 hours cycle, $185/hour. Burns 80 GPH in high cruise, $320/hour. $500/hour for thrust. This is an unreliable number since you have no engine program.

So full cycle, the FJ44 is cheaper to operate, and you have engine coverage, and you can carry more payload or go further due to lower fuel burn. If fuel prices spike up, advantage grows. If your JT15D has a major problem, your marginal savings are way gone.

The only way JT15D wins is if you can find a supply of used engines for a lot less than $185/hour remaining time, or you run past TBO. Even then, that's pretty close. The other way JT15D wins is if Williams jacks the program prices, that is, uses their leverage to extract money. They can't really do that because that would affect OEM sales.

Now FJ44 versus PW500 series (Bravo, Encore) changes the numbers a bit. The PW500 series is much closer to the fuel specifics of FJ44, so fuel cost is similar. But the engine program at PWC for the PW500 series is over $200/hour (from a Bravo owner). From what I can tell, Williams enjoys a better reputation for their program, too. I also don't know if independent shops can HSI/OH the PW500 series (I think they can?).

The JT15D route is more control for the owner, less reliant on Williams good graces. But past history of TAP fees suggest a reasonable rate increase per year, so Williams seems to be "reasonable" so far.

Mike C.

Clint, you only burn 500PPH in cruise in the Mustang? 650 in first. Those are really good numbers..

You get a gold star.

I checked a flight log for a recent trip in relatively calm winds.

Got to FL410 in 22 minutes, 108 nm downrange.
At 1 hour, 38 minutes at FL410, I was 348 nm downrange.

I climb above best rate climb speed to keep the speed up, usually about 30 knots or so above best climb speed. At the end you do have to give up a little speed to make it the last bit.

Cruise speed was ~395 knots ground speed, so I probably had a touch of a headwind, maybe 10-15 knots, which would put me right in the 350 to 360 nm range the first hour, and 410 knots thereafter.

I'll have to check my fuel totalizer to see what my first hour looks like but I bet 1500 lbs will be close for start, taxi, takeoff, climb, and some cruise. The takeoff fuel flow is kind of eye popping (over 3000 pph!) but fortunately doesn't last very long.

I'm kind of surprised the first hour is as good as it is since after reaching FL410, it takes a while to reach cruise speed.

The takeoff weight was 14,000 lbs, which is 1,900 lbs under gross, so a full gross situation will perform less well, of course.

I'm still learning how to fly this thing, but it keeps impressing me. I'm really happy with my choice.

I just wish fuel was cheaper but I am becoming emotionally adapted to fuel costing $5/gallon. Sigh.

Mike C.

Varies.

You can see my numbers here for 2022:

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=221386

Average fuel was $4.86.

Right now prices are down a bit, low $4 range in many places, but they were up earlier.

Where you fly makes a big difference. You can optimize by choosing the right airport and FBO, and also by tankering fuel when feasible. My plane allows that since it holds a lot. Fuel price delta has to be enough for the tankering weight increase.

I'll update my results for 2023 when known.

The best fuel program is CAA. I use Everest a lot otherwise (works at my home field). Otherwise an occasional use of WFS or Titan. That's all I have.

One of the big benefits of CAA is that the fees are also set by contract with each FBO. Any part 91 turbine operator who isn't CAA is throwing money out the window.

Mike C.