Agreed. They do a good job catering to their customers. My point was more that there might be more customers that they might be able to capture with a twin engine VLJ.

Agreed. They do a good job catering to their customers. My point was more that there might be more customers that they might be able to capture with a twin engine VLJ.

Yep, that’s my point. It’s tailored well to its audience. There is space for capturing another audience by building a serious VLJ.

Two of the AOPA Board members fly a Cirrus SF50 jet..

This might be a good question for Chip, but others might have some insight so I'll ask. What data (or observations) are there for owner-pilots "graduating" from a SF-50 and into an M2 or similar? Or are most pilots who buy the SF-50 staying there?

I wouldn't be remotely surprised if cirrus has a twin VLJ in the works. It makes perfect sense in their business model.
Train in a SR20, buy a 22 and fly it for a few years. Buy the VJ fly it for a few years and then upgrade again.

Cirrus is more akin to luxury car brands than other airplane brands imo. That's not a bad thing, it's just different.

Seems like the SF50 pilots that want more are moving to modern twin jets with similar avionics like the P100/P300, M2, CJ3+, some to the Epic, TBM. Not aware of any stepping back into Legacy aircraft, but might be some. It is pretty hard to go from ultramodern avionics to Legacy. Kind of like going from pressurized to non-pressurized or turbine to piston. Going backwards is hard. The Epic right now seems to be the ringer. Composite, faster, bigger, more altitude and range, no type rating needed. Still only G1000 but pretty modern version.

I didn't think so.


Legacy aircraft are the most easily upgraded.

15 years from now, the legacy Citations will likely be able to change avionics, the SF50 not so much.

Mike C.

That is a very nice panel. But there’s still something about integrated avionics. All the systems talking to each other which greatly simplifies normal, abnormal and emergency operations. Big and little things like my POH prohibits full flaps in icing conditions. Sure, I can memorize that, and I can fight the muscle memory to drop that last notch of flaps. However, if I try to put full flaps in, it knows my ice protection system was activated at some time during the flight, even if it’s off at the time. It won’t let me put in full flaps without acknowledging that the plane is not carrying ice. Similarly, stall speeds, icing Vref are all adjusted on the speed tapes, and will alarm (and in autothrottle equipped aircraft) even increase power to prevent dropping below icing speed. These are just a few of the numerous integrations between systems in the air frame. The avionics know where the gear are, and it knows where the terrain is. In addition to all the typical alarms present on a legacy aircraft, power, flaps etc. If the gear are tucked and I am below 400 feet AGL, the gear alarm in a clear voice through the headset is going to start talking to me and it’s not extinguishable. If my barometric pressure is set wrong for the local weather, it will alarm me, if I’m trending off course with lateral or vertical guidance it will alarm met me if I’m not on speed on approach it will alarm at me. It’s like having a very good CFII sitting in the right seat all the time, letting you fly and only correct you if you need a little correction. Some of these things may be available at some level in an aftermarket installation, but nothing aftermarket has all of the integration.

You consider this a positive aspect of your integration?

Hmm.

Mike C.

Having gone from my 40-year-old Conquest with a panel similar to Mike C.'s to the Pilatus with integrated Honeywell avionics - I can tell you, I'd rather have Mike's panel than mine. The whole "integrated" thing seems to be more trouble than it's worth, in my opinion.

The problem with integrated avionics is that you are absolutely married to the avionics for the life of the aircraft. So if Williams comes out with a service bulletin that adds a yellow arc to the TIT, Cirrus has to go to Garmin who have to add the arc to the software, test it on their bench, send the software to Cirrus for testing, send it back to Garmin who TSO's the new software, then send it back to Cirrus for final approval. It's a nightmare, and what we saw is that often times either the OEM or Garmin would wait until a few issues stacked up before doing a software update. In the meantime the customer is waiting....

In addition, if someone else comes out with the next new whiz bang thing (I dunno, an AI autopilot?), well you don't get it. You get state of the art for whatever year you bought the plane. Still want the avionics your 1979 Bonanza was delivered with? Look at the headache guys had to go through just to get WAAS upgrades on the early G1000's.

When they are new and state of the art the integrated systems are great. But they don't age well.

Correction - the avionics know what some sensor is detecting. You are hoping the sensor is working correctly.

The talk about the "upgradable legacy jets" vs the "integrated new jets" is very interesting to me.

It looks like Textron gets about 35-40% of it's revenue from aftermarket and support vs new sales. I think it would be interesting to compare the margin dollars in those two areas. I'd guess they are pretty close to the same.

I have no idea where/how warranty support is booked.

I've always wondered what it would be like if someone built a jet or TP to be as "widely and easily supported" as possible. Design with as much COTS as you can find. Write all kinds of docs for the airplane that make it very easy for the A&P and owner to do their own inspections and source parts.

My guess is that the company would really struggle in the long term without the captive aftermarket.

Mine does, too.

Integration creates dependencies. Dependencies create regulatory barriers. Regulatory barriers creates delays or lack of availability for upgrades. At the very least it creates a captured market which can be extorted for high cost.

The next iteration of my model, the Citation Ultra, had "integrated" avionics, the Honeywell Primus 1000 system. They have no upgrade options at present so they fly around with heavy, costly to maintain, unupgradable stuff.

In the "Considering buying a Meridian", this advise was given "Anything prior to a G1000", "I would strongly recommend a pre g1000 Meridian—2001 to 2008", "the G1000 probably won't be supported. Too risky", and so forth. The lock in of proprietary integrated avionics is a real impediment to future upgradeability.

Mike C.