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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 13:56 
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Working as a line pilot for two decades it would be very rare to not know someone who got put through the FAA medical grinder, it would also be odd outside of the helicopter or float world to work as a line pilot that long and not end up as a ATP (EAS contracts, insurance rates, Argus stuff, larger planes, etc)

Working as a mechanic however, where you and your fellow mechanics don’t NEED a medical to put food on the table, and many have never even had a medical, not hearing much about FAA medical nonsense would make sense


How about the observations of someone who flew charter AND worked on the planes too? I know both sides of the fence, and mechanics are also subject to drug testing, just like pilots. There are a lot of charter pilots who fly part time, because they value real life more than living out of a suitcase and sitting in remote FBO lounges between trips 50 weeks a year. They tend to have lucrative careers outside aviation.

I do know of three pilots who were prevented from dying by the "FAA medical grinder". All were overweight and developing high blood pressure and heart conditions. If there were no medical, they would have eventually died. All went on to bypass surgery, two had heart attacks, and yet all three were able to regain medicals after a year. I'm reasonably certain that no passengers want pilots who might have a heart attack at the controls. I also know dozens of pilots who specifically went Basic Med because they would be unable to hold a third class medical. That seems to be the object of Basic Med...lower the already low standards.

I understand your concern about the FAA medical review process, and I agree that it needs a complete overhaul. Like any government agency, the people making decisions have no performance standards.
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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 14:29 
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Username Protected wrote:

How about the observations of someone who flew charter AND worked on the planes too? I know both sides of the fence, and mechanics are also subject to drug testing, just like pilots. There are a lot of charter pilots who fly part time, because they value real life more than living out of a suitcase and sitting in remote FBO lounges between trips 50 weeks a year. They tend to have lucrative careers outside aviation.

I do know of three pilots who were prevented from dying by the "FAA medical grinder". All were overweight and developing high blood pressure and heart conditions. If there were no medical, they would have eventually died. All went on to bypass surgery, two had heart attacks, and yet all three were able to regain medicals after a year. I'm reasonably certain that no passengers want pilots who might have a heart attack at the controls. I also know dozens of pilots who specifically went Basic Med because they would be unable to hold a third class medical. That seems to be the object of Basic Med...lower the already low standards.

I understand your concern about the FAA medical review process, and I agree that it needs a complete overhaul. Like any government agency, the people making decisions have no performance standards.


Were the three pilots above putting off treatment for their conditions because of the fact that they knew it would mean at least a year off of work?

Does that make them healthier or the skies safer?

If BasicMed is “lowering the already low standards” to a level that is too low then why aren’t we seeing more pilot incapacitation accidents in that population. Might it be the case that the existing standards are arbitrary and not driven by science?

The medical process is broken beyond fixing and should go away. The data from BasicMed is the proof that it doesn’t provide any benefit.


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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 14:59 
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[/quote]

Were the three pilots above putting off treatment for their conditions because of the fact that they knew it would mean at least a year off of work?

Does that make them healthier or the skies safer?

If BasicMed is “lowering the already low standards” to a level that is too low then why aren’t we seeing more pilot incapacitation accidents in that population. Might it be the case that the existing standards are arbitrary and not driven by science?

The medical process is broken beyond fixing and should go away. The data from BasicMed is the proof that it doesn’t provide any benefit.[/quote]

If the whole process goes away, does anything replace it? Are you advocating that we allow pilots at all levels to self-certify?

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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 15:02 
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Username Protected wrote:

The medical process is broken beyond fixing and should go away. The data from BasicMed is the proof that it doesn’t provide any benefit.

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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 15:10 
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If the whole process goes away, does anything replace it? Are you advocating that we allow pilots at all levels to self-certify?


Lol, no

It’s been clearly stated, cited by the FAAs own studies, and replied to here…

Make it ALL like basic med, you have a checklist, maybe a slightly different one for each class, you go to a real doctor who practices real modern evidence based medicine, maybe dare I say bonus as the doc might happen to be your primary doc and knows your health best, and he signs you off, or not.

This is what the facts and history and basic logic points too


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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 15:20 
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Truck driver, so called DOT physical. I don’t remember ever hearing of an interstate pile-up, or a single car rear-end accident because a big rig driver had a medical incapacitation.

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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 16:05 
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Truck driver, so called DOT physical. I don’t remember ever hearing of an interstate pile-up, or a single car rear-end accident because a big rig driver had a medical incapacitation.

I've driven behind, and called 911 on, a semi weaving all over a 2 lane highway. I believe a guardrail stopped him. It was some kind of medical issue. A State Trooper finally made it past traffic, and me, just before he went to the side and hit the rail. It wasn't a mass casualty event but by scant feet at times.

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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 16:47 
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[quote="Glenn Juber"][quote="James MacGregor"][quote="Mark Occhialini"]

Working as a line pilot for two decades it would be very rare to not know someone who got put through the FAA medical grinder, it would also be odd outside of the helicopter or float world to work as a line pilot that long and not end up as a ATP (EAS contracts, insurance rates, Argus stuff, larger planes, etc)





Glen,
Just for clarification purposes, the quote that you have attributed to me is not mine but by another member.
thanks,

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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 16:52 
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No doubt it happens Rich. But it does seem a double standard. If Google is to be believed, there are 3.5 million people employed to drive big rigs at (up to?) 80,000 pounds at 55 mph (cough) with literally dozens of people within hazardous distance at all times. Their doctor gives them what is essentially a Basic Med physical.

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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 17:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
If the whole process goes away, does anything replace it? Are you advocating that we allow pilots at all levels to self-certify?


Those who fly “for compensation or hire” should be subjected to medical evaluation in order to protect the traveling public.

Those who fly “for their own personal transportation needs” should be subjected to no more medical evaluation than anyone else who utilizes a motorized conveyance for that purpose.

Those who fly “for a hobby” should be subjected to no more medical evaluation than any other hobbyist. I believe this is called “the pursuit of happiness”.


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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 17:30 
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Username Protected wrote:

Those who fly “for compensation or hire” should be subjected to medical evaluation in order to protect the traveling public.

Those who fly “for their own personal transportation needs” should be subjected to no more medical evaluation than anyone else who utilizes a motorized conveyance for that purpose.

Those who fly “for a hobby” should be subjected to no more medical evaluation than any other hobbyist. I believe this is called “the pursuit of happiness”.



I fly for hire, so why should I have to be subjected to non evidence biased punitive “medicine”?

How about just do a basic med thing for everyone, doesn’t matter what you’re flying for, you’re ether healthy enough to fly or you’re not


Like others said, truck drivers have a less a less intense exam than basic med and they can fly a 18 wheeler of explosives by your kids school

Or medical the exam school bus drivers get because parents are too lazy to drive their precious kids to their gov run schools?


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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 17:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
Truck driver, so called DOT physical. I don’t remember ever hearing of an interstate pile-up, or a single car rear-end accident because a big rig driver had a medical incapacitation.

I've driven behind, and called 911 on, a semi weaving all over a 2 lane highway. I believe a guardrail stopped him. It was some kind of medical issue. A State Trooper finally made it past traffic, and me, just before he went to the side and hit the rail. It wasn't a mass casualty event but by scant feet at times.


This is why semi trucks should have two crew stations with two truckers up front at all times. I suppose they will each need one of those "doot doot" cords to pull, and we will need to negotiate who is "Trucker Driving" vs "Trucker Monitoring" so we know who pulls the cord and when.

Also we need to barricade the truck entry doors in case someone tries to enter the truck and drive it into a building.

Also everyone who enters the trailer compartment of the truck need their groins fondled by 85 IQ uniforms and plastic badges.

...also probably 100 other things I'm forgetting to be annoyed by.

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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 17:49 
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Username Protected wrote:

This is why semi trucks should have two crew stations with two truckers up front at all times. I suppose they will each need one of those "doot doot" cords to pull, and we will need to negotiate who is "Trucker Driving" vs "Trucker Monitoring" so we know who pulls the cord and when.

Also we need to barricade the truck entry doors in case someone tries to enter the truck and drive it into a building.

Also everyone who enters the trailer compartment of the truck need their groins fondled by 85 IQ uniforms and plastic badges.

...also probably 100 other things I'm forgetting to be annoyed by.


Funny thing is I doubt that would even prevent many crashes, all it would do is drive the prices of everything up


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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2023, 11:27 
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If the whole process goes away, does anything replace it? Are you advocating that we allow pilots at all levels to self-certify?


Yes.

We do exactly what we actually do on any given day in reality and let pilots decide their own airworthiness.

This is what actually happens anyway. The medical certificate process does not keep pilots from flying who shouldn’t. We all know of people who have flown an unpressurized plane with a head cold. That’s far more dangerous than flying a two crew airliner with a tricky ticker but isn’t covered at all by the medical process. We all also know people who would be fine who are kept from flying by the medical process. I have a good friend from childhood. He’s intelligent, attentive to detail, and mechanically inclined. Would make a great pilot, but his hyperactivity during childhood got him an ADHD diagnosis. He’s not wealthy and so the special issuance process that he would have to go through to get a third class medical (with no guarantee of eventual success) is a non-starter.

The process is broken and needs to go away.


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 Post subject: Re: Unelected FAA medical contempt of congress
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2023, 16:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
We do exactly what we actually do on any given day in reality and let pilots decide their own airworthiness.

The process is broken and needs to go away.

Agree with that, but even more important there is no evidence the process does what it is supposed to. It is not supposed to be a shadow health care system.

The theory is that it should materially affect the accident rate. But there is no evidence that it affects the accident rate (pilots with medicals still occasionally have medical events, and BasicMed and rec pilots who aren’t subject to medicals show no increase in accidents). Airline pilots still occasionally have a medical incident, and the safety system in place works - two pilots for those operations.

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