Mike,

I think that extra $375/hr is what pushes the Williams planes over the edge for me. With a partner, they work. Without, they don't.

Mike C's JTXXX engines are cheaper, but they don't have the hot & high I need.

A reasonable PT-6 budget is about $100/hr/side. You'll probably pay less. By the standards Ciholas uses here, $50/hr/side would be closer..

That's the point.

In specific, If you fly a $1.5M Meridian or a $500K Citation 501, I expect your total economic impact per mile will be cheaper with the 501 for a typical owner flown profile.

Economic impact means accounting for either interest on an aircraft loan or the loss of return on investment. For $1M more in aircraft cost, that is $80K more a year when accounting for cost of money and other factors that are tied to hull value (like insurance, taxes, etc).

$80K buys 16,000 gallons of fuel, which is about 110 hours of 501 operation, so it gets that head start on the economics before the Meridian gets out the door.

If your usage drops to half for whatever reason, your costs for the Meridian don't drop much since that's tied up capital, but the 501 costs scale more dramatically with use.

Another factor is your exit plan. A $1.5M Meridian has more downside risk when you sell it. If the market drops it to $1M value, you lost the entire cost of the 501 in that reduction. The 501 simply can't lose that much value.

If you look at total dollars in and out, including all effects from capital, the cost to fly a 501 is very competitive. It does require you to be emotionally compatible with paying the fuel bills since loss of capital is not felt with the regular and visible nature of buying fuel.

The safety and passenger experience of a 501 completely out classes a Meridian.

Mike C.

They don't?

At full gross, I can depart KSAF at 32C. At the highest temperature ever recorded at KSAF, I am down 900 lbs from gross, but that's still more range or payload than a Meridian by far.

Mike C.

They don't?

At full gross, I can depart KSAF at 32C. At the highest temperature ever recorded at KSAF, I am down 900 lbs from gross, but that's still more range or payload than a Meridian by far.

Mike C.

Flaps 7, anti ice off, max permitted weight for climb requirements chart:

At 15,900 lbs max takeoff weight, 32 C works for KSAF.

Runway length required is 6,200 ft per the tables at 15,900 lbs. Slope and winds will determine which runways work, but all of the downhill ones should in calm winds.

Mike C.

We are currently assisting a venture capitol group in acquiring a PC12. They are more than capable of buying a CJ4, which would better fit their mission. They are, however, very sensitive to how a potential customer would perceive them arriving in a jet, and feel the Pilatus presents a more conservative image.

Yep, I have a client who is in the boat building business, mostly for the US and other governments, we bought him a King Air even though he could easily afford and utilize a jet.

His reasoning “I can spend $6M on a turboprop and no one will bat an eye, if I buy a $1M jet, all my employees will ask for a raise and I’ll my customers will say my boats are too expensive”

Flaps 7, anti ice off, max permitted weight for climb requirements chart:

At 15,900 lbs max takeoff weight, 32 C works for KSAF.

Runway length required is 6,200 ft per the tables at 15,900 lbs. Slope and winds will determine which runways work, but all of the downhill ones should in calm winds.

Mike C.

Very well said Dylan, and this is the idea I was trying to get at by asking. APG is smarter than the book; the book doesn't know where the mountains are. Without using any departure procedure, the Citation V is extremely limited out of SAF at 32C, to 12,663. I'm not sure what Mike's plane weighs, but that's enough for 2 pilots and ~2500 lbs of fuel, not going to get you too far with reserves in the V.


Using the departure procedure in APG helps quite a bit. You're able to takeoff at 15,130. Not bad at all, but still 770 lbs short of the max gross takeoff Mike is saying he can do.

Agreed, the runways are long enough, it is a climb limitation.

You do get into issues of uphill knocking out some runways, but 10, 15, and 20 will definitely work. 28 probably works with 10+ knots of headwind, too. 2 might work with headwind as well, but wind from the north on a super hot day seems less likely.


The takeoff weight limit chart defines what weight will allow you to reach 35 ft AGL after an engine failure and achieve the takeoff distances in the runway charts. So you do have climb assured for takeoff configuration.


The book numbers give you this.

First segment *net* climb gradient at the weights listed are positive. This means the *gross* climb gradient is 0.8%, what the plane will actually do. All the climb charts have a 0.8% climb gradient margin built in, that's the difference between gross and net.

For first segment, you are assured of positive climb gradient even if you manage to waste 0.8% margin the standards built in. You have to get the gear up during this segment. Gear transit time is 4 seconds, so not a big deal.

Following that, you need to make 1.6% net gradient (2.4% gross) for second segment climb. This is with gear up, V2 speed, flaps takeoff. The book gives you those numbers.


If the temperature at KSAF is 32 C, the odds it is IMC are nil. Those kind of temperatures happen with very low dew points in that area. With visual conditions, and positive rate of climb, you can stay out of the rocks. Having synth viz, terrain maps, and TAWS-B provides further assurance of missing the rocks. It won't be at night due to high temperature.

Realistically, with an engine failure on takeoff and the airport clearly in sight, you are going to fly a pattern and land, not complete a long climb procedure.


A lot less than a Meridian with an engine out, that is for sure!

This is practiced in the sim, repeatedly. It is not unfamiliar, and it is not particularly stressful.

Reduce the weight to cover the proposed mission that fits inside the Meridian payload/range profile, and I'll be lighter and perform better. A 900 lbs drop adds 0.7 to 0.8% to all gradients, for example. I suspect I cover the entire payload/range profile of a Meridian at 1900 lbs under my max weight, now my second segment climb gradient is 3.3% net, 4.1% gross.

All of this is based on an engine failure at the absolute worst time. If it occurs before V1, or it occurs some seconds after V1, all of this gets better. There has probably never been a Citation pilot who experience the worst case outside of an intentional act. The standards being applied to my plane GREATLY exceed those for the Meridian.

There is no day the Meridian can fly a particular mission from KSAF and I can't.

Mike C.

What runway and what DP is APG actually doing? Those are weird numbers it produces so the underlying assumptions need to be exposed.

Even at this weight, you are easily out performing a Meridian in terms of range and payload and you are protected from engine failure.

The proposed flight will be day VMC for sure. 32 C is above the July average high temperature, which is hot and dry. The dew points are very low, and the low temperatures are 12 C average in July, indicating the peak temperature doesn't last that long during the day.

Mike C.

These stories are crazy to me. Who the hell cares what employees think about aircraft purchases? Buying a less safe, slower, less comfortable aircraft because of perceptions of others is the dumbest plane buying metric I have ever heard.

To me that means they are hiding things and insecure for a reason. What a weird world we live in.

Buy the best tool for the job and tell anyone that judges your choice to F off. Honestly thats a great way to find the bad apples. If they want a raise because I bought something as the business owner then they can leave. Grow up. We do not live in a Communist country.

I pay my employees well and they could care less what I do with my money.


Mike

They don't?

At full gross, I can depart KSAF at 32C. At the highest temperature ever recorded at KSAF, I am down 900 lbs from gross, but that's still more range or payload than a Meridian by far.

Mike C.

That is not correct.

Are you saying just because it's 32 C there aren't any thunderstorms to be avoided - thunderstorms that are possibly straddling the DP path? That's exactly when we get thunderstorms!

Sure, 32C is often VMC up well into the flight levels - but certainly not always.

You HAVE to look at the radar here in the summer before you leave the ground to make sure there isn't a cell in the path of the DP, because you may be into it within a minute after takeoff and center make be late on giving you a diversion vector. Sometimes you can work out a vector in advance before you leave the ground if you'll hit the cell after reaching the MVA, but sometimes you just have to use the DP that sends you in the wrong direction for your intended route of flight.

What runway and what DP is APG actually doing? Those are weird numbers it produces so the underlying assumptions need to be exposed.

Even at this weight, you are easily out performing a Meridian in terms of range and payload and you are protected from engine failure.

The proposed flight will be day VMC for sure. 32 C is above the July average high temperature, which is hot and dry. The dew points are very low, and the low temperatures are 12 C average in July, indicating the peak temperature doesn't last that long during the day.

Mike C.