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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2022, 12:24 
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Joined: 11/19/14
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Location: St. Louis, MO (KSUS)
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Victor, if you’re wanting to check out a 421 in the STL area, we have one there. It would give you a pretty good idea of passenger experience. Shoot me a PM if you have interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2022, 12:35 
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Quote:
I found the potty quite useful (for pee) on multiple occasions, and for adults, although I often provided champagne to my passengers, lol.


I flew 5 young women (the daughter of the owner and friends) to New York in a 421 for a holiday weekend. when I was cleaning up the airplane I saw the "Potty" (so named because it is a small pot) was brimming full of pee.. Yaauughh!

Livin the dream...

Edit, in a 414 I flew we added a little kitty litter to the pot to make it less likely to splash around in turbulence.

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soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.


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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2022, 15:02 
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Joined: 08/21/14
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Location: KPDK
Aircraft: C421B MU2-40 Solitai
Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
I found the potty quite useful (for pee) on multiple occasions, and for adults, although I often provided champagne to my passengers, lol.


I flew 5 young women (the daughter of the owner and friends) to New York in a 421 for a holiday weekend. when I was cleaning up the airplane I saw the "Potty" (so named because it is a small pot) was brimming full of pee.. Yaauughh!

Livin the dream...

Edit, in a 414 I flew we added a little kitty litter to the pot to make it less likely to splash around in turbulence.


Even better, line the pot with a plastic bag and open up a Depends. The Depends keeps it very neat and easy to clean.

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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2022, 21:55 
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Joined: 08/10/14
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Location: Northwest Arkansas (KVBT)
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Username Protected wrote:
From my thread on the 414A vs 421C i received several suggestions to consider the MU-2. That got me thinking more generally. What problem am I trying to solve? So, I am interested in feedback on best plane for the following mission:

6 people (pilot + 5 passengers - or 4 with a co-pilot) = 1,020 lbs
240 lbs luggage
600 nm typical trip, though some will be as short as 200 nm
Region: St. Louis based, with flights to Denver, Anne Arbor, Charlotte, Dallas
Lav onboard: if block time exceeds 2.5 hrs. In other words, no potty is needed if block time less than 2.5 hrs.

Primary considerations: Passenger comfort, dispatch rate, low operating costs
Not as important: block time or speed

What aircraft would you suggest? We can be flexible on acquisition costs, since capital is not hard to come by, but ongoing OPEX needs to be kept as low as possible. Also, many of these flights will be owner flown, though some may include a safety pilot for the foreseeable future.

I really need to stress passenger comfort. For this to work, the 4/5 passengers should feel they are riding in something more akin to a limo than a farm tractor - while not breaking my monthly operating budget. Is this too much to ask?

Vic.

I missed the other thread (maybe because it was about twins) but this mission falls squarely in the realm of a TBM except the "official baggage" limit is 230lbs. None have a block time greater than 2.5hrs with typical winds. The W&B is close for your longest flights (to Denver) when maxed out with load. Can be done with some cargo between the seats or in the front baggage (unpressurized).

The cons: very few available on the market, cabin is a bit tighter than an MU2 or KA.
The pros: much faster, much lower fuel cost, single engine to maintain (could be con also), lower fuel burn means having fewer passenger seats filled is still economical.

When I only have a hammer, does everything look like a nail?


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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2022, 22:01 
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Company: RNP Aviation Services
Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
The 421C works good if you are using it as a personal airplane and schedule is somewhat flexible. It's the Suburban of piston aircraft, reasonably fast, very comfortable.

However, if schedule is important, you need a turbine aircraft. Most concerns about ice go away, and with an RVSM equipped aircraft thunderstorms enroute become much less of an issue.

I sold a customers 421C that I managed and bought a 441. The 421C was a 45 minute climb to altitude in the summertime. I had one event at ISA+10 where I couldn't outclimb ice at FL190 so I ended up descending to get out of it. With the 441, ice was never a concern. 2000 FPM down low, and 1000 FPM when heavy got you into the FL's quickly. In the low 30's, we could get over most weather. I would took the 441 into any airport the 421C would go into.

In my opinion, the Dash 10 441 is almost the perfect personal airplane.... if you can afford it. The Commander would also be at the top of my list. I only have a couple hours in a Commander 690, but a close friend sold a lot of Commanders (with Bruce) and he speaks very highly of them. You will not beat the efficiency of either of those aircraft (and the Solitaire).

If money's not an issue, and neither is runway length, buy a jet...


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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2022, 23:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
It may not be what you want to hear. It just is what it is. The numbers don't lie.
:whistle:


Nor are they accurate, many airplanes are not even trackable on flightaware these days


Accurate to what percentage? I doubt that more than 10% of the 'smaller' GA aircraft population hides their flights. And if they did, why would one particular type hide more than the others? Reasonable man theory suggests that it would be more of a linear exclusion across the board. :shrug: We're not talking Citation X's or GV's here, with the kind of clientele that don't want to be seen.

So do King Air 90 operators hide their flights more than King Air 200 owners?? Hmmm... you're talking Model 90 'Skull & Crossbone's' secret society stuff here... :D
My apologies, if so!

It's just a gouge to help everyone see what's really flying around regularly these days, in case folks were interested. Like everything, I'm sure there are some errors.

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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2022, 23:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
So do King Air 90 operators hide their flights more than King Air 200 owners?? Hmmm... you're talking Model 90 'Skull & Crossbone's' secret society stuff here... :D
My apologies, if so! .


I shopped the market for almost 4 years, I believe I can count on one hand the number of 90’s that were actually trackable that I had an interest in

Also, a compelling point of 90s vs 200’s or 300’s is that 90’s tend to be owner operated, whereas the others tend to be on charter some or all of the time

So there may be unique differences to those models based on who’s flying them

Also consider that if a tail number is not blocked, it doesn’t mean it’s not flying under a call sign and/or using a PIA


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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2022, 12:45 
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Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
We can be flexible on acquisition costs, since capital is not hard to come by, but ongoing OPEX needs to be kept as low as possible. Also, many of these flights will be owner flown, though some may include a safety pilot for the foreseeable future.

I really need to stress passenger comfort. For this to work, the 4/5 passengers should feel they are riding in something more akin to a limo than a farm tractor - while not breaking my monthly operating budget. Is this too much to ask?

Vic.


Unlimited capex
Limited opex
Excellent cabin
Owner-flown
lav for longer legs
Speed isn't critical

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned an early PC-12.


Last edited on 10 Mar 2022, 19:12, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2022, 12:53 
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Username Protected wrote:

Unlimited capex
Limited opex

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a early PC-12.


I agree ... sorta

Say $3mm capital. Assume that you can cover interest, property tax and hull insurance for 4% ... that is $10K per month. At some point capex becomes opex


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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2022, 13:11 
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Not a piston mission. Not anymore anyway.

Consider the availability of parts, maintenance and most threatening, fuel.

There aren't any piston aircraft in current or recent manufacture that are capable of this mission. Support is waning for cabin class piston twins, considering the decades since the last new one rolled off the line.

Let's say you land away from home and have a significant maintenance issue. Then what?

There are turbine powered aircraft in production, and older ones that are still well supported.

It's just going to be expensive no matter which way you turn. The actual layout for turbine powered aircraft isn't going to be worse. Cabin class piston twins aren't cheaper over time.


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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2022, 14:31 
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I think a Phenom 100 would do the job for you.

The cabin is really nice (spacious and high) with a private, if small, lav. All around excellent passenger experience.

Its range is the drawback, but not an issue for your stated utilization.

it's a 6 seater all in (unless the lav is belted? not sure) but putting a pax in the lav would not fit your objective anyway of course. Opex isn't bad but the Williams program might annoy you. Something to look at I think.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2022, 15:05 
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This has come a long way from the 414A. :rofl:


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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2022, 15:18 
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Username Protected wrote:

Unlimited capex
Limited opex

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a early PC-12.


I agree ... sorta

Say $3mm capital. Assume that you can cover interest, property tax and hull insurance for 4% ... that is $10K per month. At some point capex becomes opex


OP said "flexible on acquisition costs" but who knows - that may means he can stretch his budget to $800k from $400k. He also didn't say what the opex budget was, or how many times a year he'd do this trip. We're missing a lot of info - but it's always fun to spend someone else's money for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2022, 15:41 
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https://fountainpowerboats.com/models/p ... lightning/
This will fit the bill... maybe... it would for me... :peace:


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 Post subject: Re: Best plane for 6 people, 600 nm
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2022, 16:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
This has come a long way from the 414A. :rofl:


Pretty soon we'll have him in a Gulfstream. It's the BT way :) :pilot:

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