Not bad, however, a nicely outfitted Aerostar 700 will do the same and better with two engines at half the capx.

I vote neither.

A Citation 501 for $300-$700K blows both airplanes out of the water with respect to performance, safety and load carrying capacity. TBM beats the 501 in range but the 501 slays the Meridian in this respect. Equally, in my area, it's cheaper to maintain a Citation than a Meridian or TBM. No offense to Meridian owners but its build quality is no where near equal to airliner quality Citation or military grade TBM construction. Go shake the wing on a Meridian or Malibu to see what I'm talking about.

Citation parts are ubiquitous and cheap; not true for the Piper or TBM.

Buy a 501 and use that Capex for the extra fuel is my vote.

BasicMed rule is 18,000 MSL, not FL180.

Is 18,000 ft always available west bound? I got the impression it may not be if FL180 is allowed due to baro setting.

In any case, half your time will be 17,000 ft due to east bound direction of flight.

Being limited to 17 or 18 would be very annoying in weather.

The real outcome from all this is, hopefully, is replacing all cases which required 3rd class medical with BM requirements.

Mike C.

Fingers crossed, but it doesn’t seem like anyone is really working toward that at this point - the alphabets seem to be sitting on the current situation as if they are done.

Sure would be nice to have need for medicals go away for part 91.

We are coming up on 5 years of BasicMed which will occur on May 1st 2022.

At that point, we can analyze the accident data and see if BasicMed pilots are having more or less medically induced accidents than 3rd class pilot had the prior 5 years.

The results, I predict, will show basically no difference.

This is ammunition to expose the ineffectiveness of the 3rd class medical and to start the process of getting rid of it.

Mike C.

My 58 cost almost the same per hour as the PC12. The main reason was the fuel cost differential, oil changes, and piston nickel and diming.

I think that the Meridian is underrated. It's certainly a cheaper option as a few have expounded. I also think that pressurization and altitude make it a totally different airplane than a 58. I would suggest that's why so many fewer 58's are sold now vs the Meridian and TBM.

Be nice if basic med is available as a class III. Don’t see it happening though. Planes in the flight levels are too big, too fast, and the stakes too high for the FAA to accept the risk. But I can definitely see myself going basic med one day, as my health starts waning. Even with weather limitations, 260 knots up to 18,000 feet in a most weather aircraft is still pretty nice. Especially in-context of the alternatives being unpressurized pistons. By then, I won’t be flying for work, so letting a strong weather system pass won’t be the issue it is now, where I am usually on a tight schedule.

Chuck, you have flown enough flights in the turboprop world to know your airplane’s sweet spot is “no-man’s land” for the big airplanes.

Everyone in favor of eliminating Class 3 Medical’s should get on the bandwagon of increasing the altitude of BM rules. That is the next logical step toward the bigger goal.

You’re right on the money Tom. My wife misses the TBM more than I do, if that is possible.

Not if you consider cost of capital.

Mike C.

I want this to be true, but I have a really hard time believing one can get by with $20k maintenance on a 501. I have insight to a low utilization 15 year old CJ3 and they're averaging about $50k in maintenance per year, at a California Citation Service Center. I would think a 40 year old 501 would be significantly more. I am also concerned with what the residual value will be on a 501 in 10-years on a 50 year old jet. I know the value is in the engines and you get the airframe for free, but at some point does the demand for these engines dry up. What other airframes use the same engines?

I have a CE500 type and the thrust reversers alleviate my contaminated runway concerns. I may have to take another look at the 501 thread. My main mission (65% or more of all trips) is a very short 100nm, followed by under 500nm trips, only have one or two trips per year over 500nm, probably won't ever make sense in a jet.

Key is low utilization maintenance program (LUMP) if you fly 150 hours/year or so. Textron offers this under certain circumstances.

My V has phase 1-4 every 3 years, phase 1-5 every 6 years. So even if phase 1-4 is $40K and phase 5 is $80K, that's a net $20K/year, and I expect to beat those numbers easily. It is also VERY nice to have a 3 year interval on the major phases.


One, they likely don't have a LUMP. The CJ3 is on the "doc" program, not phases.

Two, they take it to a factory service center which makes every plane new again at much expense.

Three, the factory service center uses only factory parts at full retail.

Four, the factory service center is a "replace before debug" type shop. Plenty of stories of things being replaced that were found not to be needed.

Five, it is California.


Oddly enough, it can be backwards from your perception.

Newish planes, like a CJ3, have little after market parts support, so everything you do is factory retail parts. Most CJ3 owners are on the "programs" for parts, service, and engines. These programs can run $900/hour all up.

Older airplanes have aftermarket parts, either PMA or possibly used/surplus. You can get service from non factory shops. You get to control the parts strategy. If you are diligent, you can also help debug stuff to save lots of cost.


I bet the CJ3 loses more value in the next 10 years than the 501 is worth entirely. I also predict the 501 does have residual value in 10 years.

Also, with a high dollar airframe like a CJ3, you pay more for insurance every year, and underwriters often have higher requirements (more mentor time, say). With a 501, liability only becomes a viable option since so little capital is tied up in it.


There are used engines and used engine parts, like HT blades and impellers. You can also hot section only and not overhaul.

On a CJ3, you only viable option is to pay the Williams tax. That's $340/hour right now (both engines). It is nice that your engines are taken care of, but over a full overhaul period, that's $1.7M in Williams payments which usually exceeds the airframe value. You basically "rent" your FJ44 equipped airplane from Williams.


Doesn't work for everyone, the 501 is relatively slow and short range. It is one of the few Citations which is turf runway enabled out of the box, however (my V is not).

I ended up in a V for the range (~1800-1900 nm) and the speed (420 KTAS) and short runway capable (2500 ft). I didn't really need the cabin size. I have less than $1M invested and that included a full Garmin G700 GTN750 GWX75 upgrade. That can't be duplicated right now in today's market, however, they are in high demand.

Mike C.

Not if you consider cost of capital.

Mike C.

There is no LUMP for the CJ line. All true points, but I'm not comparing a CJ3 to a 501. Rather a 501 to a Meridian. If I could be convinced all costs (capital, insurance, operating, etc) of a 501 could be comparable to a Meridian over a 5-10 year hold period I'd definitely consider it. The 501 is overkill for my mission, but I'd gladly take the increased capability if it doesn't cost much more.

You did really well to get into an upgraded 560 for $1MM. How many hours are on it? I casually perused them on Controller and even before COVID that sounds like a really good deal. The 560 is a FANTASTIC airplane. I have about 500 hours SIC time in one. Things started breaking at about the 10 year mark and the owner sold it for a CJ2. It was a step backwards. Did I mention the 560 is a FANTASTIC airplane, it really bears repeating. The only improvement of the CJ series in my opinion is the trailing link gear. The 560 can be pretty stiff legged.

Not if you consider cost of capital.

Mike C.