First one is a Lycoming turboprop, not Garrett (Honeywell).

Turboprop conversions of piston aircraft are usually quite poor. Be sure to check range (they lack enough fuel) and full fuel payload (they lack use load).

In the end, you will be ahead to buy a plane that was meant to be a turboprop.

Mike C.

+1

Hi Jack,

I don’t get those speeds in my 1979 421. Probably 10 knots below. I have hubcaps, don’t have strakes. Have RSTOL (not that it should make any difference in cruise?)

I mostly fly heavy too - I do notice higher climb rates when it is occasionally just me, but not really much higher cruise speeds.

Any ideas where I could start to look?

WRT this thread - my family of 5 LOVE the plane. We go everywhere in it - it’s like a car to us. Big, roomy and quiet. No headphones. Lots of luggage, all in the nose and not in the cabin. Straight leg, and easiest plane I’ve ever landed. Don’t see need for trailing link - adds weight unnecessarily. Engines very easy to manage - dont be put off by the bad stories. They run cool, and very smooth. Really only 3 power settings you need - takeoff, climb and cruise. Descent is same as cruise, then just reduce map in 2 steps as you get closer to airport. Don’t touch rpm or mixture after set for cruise until engine shutdown - particularly rpm, otherwise props will drive engines through the gears. I don’t fly lop, however some people do successfully. But good maintenance is absolutely critical, and things break more often than you would like. I can’t compare to turbines - I average 120 hours a year, and get the feeling it would be a big step up in cost at my utilisation to a 441 or KA (I live in Aust, and no support for mu2s here). As mentioned in earlier posts, SE performance is less than desirable - I always feel happier at 1000 ft after takeoff. Train for them lots. TBH, SE performance is my main reason for wanting turbine.

If u r genuinely interested, pay for a subscription to twincessna.org - tonnes of good info there.

And no way would I get a 414 when I could get a 421.

That number seems high to me.

You could be flying a Citation for the same cost per mile. That would be ~$1400/hour, which is a very solid number for an owner flown Citation.

I've owned my MU2 for 13 years and saved a bunch over owning a 421 if this is the case. The 421 is a very nice airplane, but if what you say is true, I am very happy I made the jump to turbine.

Mike C.

Hello Brad,

There are many here that could answer better than I...

I assume you're using the same power settings, 32.5" & 1800rpm?
RAM claims the winglets add 5 kts at 75% & 10 kts at 65%. No idea how close that is to reality.
I'm not familiar with the RSTOL mod, does it add any drag when clean?

That number seems high to me.

You could be flying a Citation for the same cost per mile. That would be ~$1400/hour, which is a very solid number for an owner flown Citation.

I've owned my MU2 for 13 years and saved a bunch over owning a 421 if this is the case. The 421 is a very nice airplane, but if what you say is true, I am very happy I made the jump to turbine.

Mike C.

I don't fly heavy a lot, a few trips per year. But weight does seem to moderately affect speed in ours. On those trips I won't see normal TAS until some fuel is burned off.

In one of those pics I posted earlier you'll notice the TAS was 208. That was a heavy flight with 8 on board. It was also taken in IMC with a little ice on unprotected surfaces. Every little thing makes a difference.

We'd like to add strakes also. Have heard nothing but positive reviews.

I fly and maintain a 421B. It is like riding in a Cadillac. Very comfortable, quiet enough that I have left the copilot seat and went to the back to speak with passengers without a headset and not screaming. Not as fast as the Aerostar, but it is not that much slower. Landings are easy and smooth even without the trailing link gear. These are pressurized pistons, so the maintenance is a bit more intensive but nothing crazy. We've overhauled fuel servos, replaced the exhaust (10 yr limit), gone through mags. A turboprop is probably about the same in regards to maintenance. With the shorter trips the OP refers to I would think the 421 would work great. I would think a turboprop would have much higher fuel consumption down low for those short trips.

The $750 is fully loaded except cost of capital over a full engine/panel ownership cycle. Assuming say 150 hrs/yr

Engine reserve $100/hr
Avionics reserve $30/hr
Fuel $200/hr
Hangar $60/hr
Insurance $30/hr
Training $30/hr
Annual (inspection only) $30/hr
Repairs $60/hr
Oil change $20/hr

That gets you to $560/hr without boots, windshields, paint and various other lumpy big ticket items

But even if it’s a $650/hr airplane and you can run it for $300k over 500 hours ... capex isnt a big driver of total costs

I have about 100 hours in a C340 and have flown several times in a C421 (both in the back and cockpit) which resulted in an immediate love affair. The cabin is glorious, the baggage space is nearly unlimited with the biggest nose baggage of anything in the category along with wing locker storage and massive room in the aft baggage hold. The quietness is not exaggerated as passengers can easily have a conversation in the club seating without headsets. There's everything to love about piloting and being a passenger in a 421.

I looked very closely, ran all the numbers, talked to Twin Cessna mx shops and interviewed 1/2 dozen 421 owners when I was shopping for them. I came very close to pulling the trigger on a C421B/C 5-6 years ago. The mx and unpredictability of mx events is what scared me away. I'd talk to an owner who would routinely spend $50K on shop visits (no engine work) and next year drop another $50K on a whole new list of squawks. It seems like every Twin Cessna shop will hand you a bill for $50K-$100K no matter what 421 you own and no matter how much previous mx was done on it.

One 421B I looked at just had $90K of mx done (no engine work) and on the write up, there was another $30K in deferrals that I knew I would want to do when I bought it that didn't include the $150K+ that I knew I'd have to put into avionics and interior. The last owner I spoke with told me how he maintained a open check policy to keep it in the highest flight-worthy condition he could and told me that he wished to say that it all resulted in a vast improvement in dispatchability but that he could not at all claim that. That was the last owner conversation I needed to look for something else.

Now that said, I still lust for them and still want one. In fact, I would love to have a 421 and keep the SR and pick which one suited the mission of the day. That would be kinda silly as something else (SETP) would be a much better fit but it doesn't prevent me from still considering it. One factor that would make a huge difference would be if I operated one from a field with good Twin Cessna experience. If I had that at my field, I would probably do it, even now. The $ is a consideration but pales in comparison to the hassle factor of having to ferry the bird to the shop 1/2 dozen times per year or more. If I could place a call to the mechanic on the field and tell him to look at xyz, that would completely change the ownership experience for me.

Here's what it really comes down to. Add up all the systems and parts on a 421. Fuel pumps, starter adapters, turbos, cylinders, mags, exhaust, pressurization system, a/c system, windshields, landing gear, boots, blah blah. All of them require regular maintenance checks and replacements - there's just no way around it. Examine a dozen mx logs of C421's that fly 100-200 hrs / yr and look to see how many mx events per year each of them average. My guess is that you're going to see at least 5-7 mx events annually for each of them. If you don't have a shop on the field, then you'll be required to get her to the shop for each of those events. If that doesn't bother you, then you should go for it.

I'm surprised at the 421 costs being presented here. $750/hour? $50K/year maintenance? Wow!

Seriously, for that kind of money, or LESS, you can be flying turbine, and that's a whole different "plane" of existence than piston.

Turbine airplanes are better built, aren't being vibrated apart constantly, and simply don't break down. Mission reliability is a major benefit of turbine, perhaps more so than speed, even.

Mike C.

I have flown my 1980 421C 2,200 hours and (knock on wood) never had a AOG or canceled flight.

I also do not spend anything near 50,000 a year on MX. THERE ARE ONLY 3 THINGS A 421 buyer needs to know.

1) Only buy a 421 that has been throughly inspected by a VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE IA OR SHOP that really knows 421’s. I cannot emphasize this point enough. Avoid planes that have spent time in foreign countries or have missing logs. Lots of secrets can be concealed or hidden.

2) have a shop that is very experienced in maintaining 421’s , hopefully close by so you can make regular visit’s while your plane is in for maintenance.

3) Become a very educated owner. Buy both a shop and parts manual that you will read cover to cover. Also read your POH cover to cover at least once a year.

If you do those three things your odds of having a pleasant 421 experience will be greatly enhanced.

Don't be afraid of a good '73 or later 421B. It flies the exact same as the C and is only 5-8 kts slower above FL220. If you buy a well cared for 421 it shouldn't give you many headaches. I found that the only issues that I had were the occasional fuel pump and Continental cylinder heads. (BTW, After many years of only buying RAM, I started staying away from RAM cylinders and found more luck for half the price getting rebuilt cylinders) My annuals ran around $10k.

From my perspective, there seems to be a massive difference in the ownership costs from owner to owner and perhaps Gerald is touching on the difference above. I can certainly see how those who spend a great deal of time researching the shop and parts manuals are able to cut some costs and not allow shops to run up the bill. For me, it all comes down to $/hr and for my situation, what I earn in my business far exceeds what I can save by taking the time to know every detail about my airplane. I don’t currently have the time and frankly the interest to become an expert on the mx of any bird I fly. I do my homework and certainly don’t throw the keys and checkbook to the mechanics who maintain my birds but I prefer to keep my primary focus on my business and family vs. becoming an expert on my airplane parts and mx manual. For those that have the luxury to do what Gerald suggests, I applaud you.

Don, it really does not take that much time and it makes the pilot owner very knowledgeable about systems and maintenance.

Even if you just skim the information at least you know where to find it.